Adding low to preexisting high signal to noise ratio imaging data

11 replies655 views
Marc Monarcha avatar
Hey,

I am currently in the process of imaging the squid nebula, a very faint Oiii object. I have already acquired around 28 hours of data using an Oiii filter around the new moon nights with no moon in the sky.
In practice, now that the moon will start to get higher and brighter in the sky, would it be a bad idea to add some more Oiii data?
My question in theory would be: Would adding low SNR ratio data to high SNR data yield better results  than just using the high SNR data after processing? If it would, would you think that there is a limit where adding more data would actually harm? Like for example, taking things to the extreme, imaging a target from bortle 1 skies and deciding to want to add data to it from bortle 8? Assuming decent amount of data here of course.

Thanks!
Well Written Engaging
andrea tasselli avatar
It all depends on what it is defined by the term "adding". Sophisticated programs such as Pi would allow you to define "addition" as a function of many variables. In principle "adding" data is always beneficial but it might hit the law of decreasing return pretty soon so the gain might not be worth the endeavor.
Torben van Hees avatar
That depends a lot on your usual location. A last- or first-quarter moon is about 11 times less bright than the full moon which illuminates the sky to about 18 mag/arc-sec^2), so very approx. 20.5 mag/arc-sec^2. This means in Bortle 5 and above, there will be no significant effect - this is also in keeping with what I see at my home location. This is highly directional, of course and does not account for glare and reflections, so don't try and shoot your target 10° from the moon. If you have darker skies, it's not quite that easy, because the narrowband filters now need to be accounted for.

But you also put in 28h of exposure time already. To further increase your total SNR by 1.4 times, you will need an additional 28 hours even with the same quality subs. I find I see rather little real benefit unless I increase SNR by a factor of 2 - which means 4 times the total exposure time. I'ld add narrower bandpass filters will have the same result - but you're already using 3nm filters.
Helpful Insightful
Dionysus avatar
Can adding low quality data ever worsen a stack?  (Assuming standard WBPP settings etc.)  I've never seen a straight answer to this question…
Well Written Engaging
andrea tasselli avatar
Can adding low quality data ever worsen a stack?  (Assuming standard WBPP settings etc.)  I've never seen a straight answer to this question...

Yes and no. It depends on how you add to the existing stack and how you define "low" quality.
Dionysus avatar
andrea tasselli:
Can adding low quality data ever worsen a stack?  (Assuming standard WBPP settings etc.)  I've never seen a straight answer to this question...

Yes and no. It depends on how you add to the existing stack and how you define "low" quality.

Sorry, I meant "low SNR" - for example data captured under much brighter skies as per the OP's question.  Adding to the stack with default WBPP settings, assuming the frames are just above the quality cut-off so that they are included in the stack.
andrea tasselli avatar
Sorry, I meant "low SNR" - for example data captured under much brighter skies as per the OP's question. Adding to the stack with default WBPP settings, assuming the frames are just above the quality cut-off so that they are included in the stack.

Preamble: I don't use WBPP so I have no way to know what the "default" settings would be.

If SNR is your criterion then, if the choice of the weights are reasonable, then yes, it would still add meaningful data (assuming they are are normalized to each other, say with LinearFit). If the criterion is resolution then maybe no (if the high SNR is also high resolution) or yes (if the low SNR is also at much higher resolution of the high SNR stack). Or could be a combination of these and other factors which must be given proper weight in the combination of the two. Note, also, that if you combine two stack together you would need to use PM rather than ImageIntegration to carry out the task so the weights need to be pre-calculated for this to work. Alternatively you would need to create a dummy copy of each to be able to use ImageIntegration using pre-assigned weights.

OTOH, if the criterion is the smoothness of the backbroud (i.e., its noise) chances are that adding a much noiser background to a definitely more pristine one won't help the aesthetics of the final image.
Helpful
Alex Woronow avatar
Marc,

Currently, PI does not have any method that will reasonably forecast whether combining 2 or more data sets will improve or degrade the final image. Please see my earlier posting...
https://www.astrobin.com/forum/c/astrophotography/deep-sky-processing-techniques/when-combining-image-sets-harms-the-final-image/?page=1#post-122181

So, we are left with the try-it-and-see option...very unsatisfying!

Alex Woronow
ks_observer avatar
Alex Woronow avatar
Thanks for the reference…do you have one that verifies that PI uses this method, and when and where it uses it?

Also, image noise variance is not the only factor to consider. Resolution, for instance, is also important in determining the properties/quality of a composite image.

Alex
Well Written
ks_observer avatar
Alex Woronow:
Thanks for the reference...do you have one that verifies that PI uses this method, and when and where it uses it?

Also, image noise variance is not the only factor to consider. Resolution, for instance, is also important in determining the properties/quality of a composite image.

Alex

This is from the Pix link that I cited:
SNR allows us to implement a scaled version of the inverse variance weighting method.[8] 

I agree that other factors are important.
The questions was whether you lose anything by adding noisy subs (low SNR subs) to high quality subs (high SNR subs).
With inverse variance weighting, you lose no SNR, you only gain SNR.
Dionysus avatar
Thanks for "weighing" in there ks_o... 

I hate having to trust other people's maths, but this stuff is way above my pay grade... 

How's this quote at the top of the doc you cited? - "The tool that is so dull that you cannot cut yourself on it is not likely to be sharp enough to be either useful or helpful."