Mono or OSC camera?

Topic starter

Sep 12, 2023

Hi again,

I asked before many times about a scope to be as my third option or setup to use, and i didn't decide on anything yet for some reasons until recently i saw a new scope that is like 90-98% is the answer to my question, then this will leave me to another part of setup which is,..... THE CAMERA.

I have enough filters to be used for DSO imaging, so i am not lacking filters mainly, but i try not go into changing a lot of filters per camera route, and the only way is to have more cameras, and for that i am now thinking about which third camera i should get paired to that third scope i want to get, the model sensor is same, but it is either a color or a mono depends on what i want to do, i have two same sensor of this camera which is ToupTek IMX571, one is color and one is mono, for color i bought a dual band filter which is L-Ultimate for Ha/OIII, i bought SII to be used with the mono camera, i also can use Lum with the mono camera, now if i will use three scopes and cameras then i will leave or make one camera+scope dedicated for RGB stars only, so in this case should i go with OSC and UV/IR cut or LP filter to collect RGB and done with it or i better use RGB filters where i already said i hate to keep changing filters even inside automatic filter wheel? I can't trust the sky conditions in my area that i will be able to have like best 1-3 hours to collect RGB perfectly each and enough, what will be the difference between for example 2-3 hours OSC against 30min-1 hour RGB filters total?

I live under Bortle 8/9, some parts of the sky is less polluted, but the North direction is almost heavily polluted, and South is mostly mostly covered by my house imaging from the ground of front yard, so i am not sure how good RGB will be then but most likely for stars i will use short exposures like 10-30sec up to 1 minute long anyway, does OSC has more issues in this case than mono or for RGB the difference is minimal? what do you suggest?

What about doing RGB as broadband for targets such as galaxies and clusters, is that different story than RGB of stars alone? In fact clusters are stars, galaxies are not sure mix of nebulosity and stars or what? i will always capture Lum from mono, and NB other than a dual band filter with OSC but the rest is with mono, i even have Ha filter alone if needed, just i don't have 2" OIII yet [i have 1.25" and 36"], and i will keep the door open to add say forth matched setup to this three setup when done, so i even will have more flexibility in this case, but i still want to keep RGB data as an individual separate setup, which camera mode you recommend to choose, OSC or Mono?

Oscar

Sep 12, 2023

OSC and UV/IR cut is all you need for stars only, that's the quickest way to go, and results will be fine; processing and exposure times are what matter most. You don't need Mono for stars, or a LP filter for stars. I've seen some of the best astrophotographers use OSC for stars and Mono for nebula emissions and galaxies, it's a little quicker than Mono for everything. And I have no experience with star exposure length, but I think no more than 30 minutes integration is enough for stars. I have little experience, so don't trust what I'm saying as total facts but only as what I've heard and seen over many forum threads.

Tareq Abdulla:
if i will use three scopes and cameras then i will leave or make one camera+scope dedicated for RGB stars only, so in this case should i go with OSC and UV/IR cut or LP filter to collect RGB and done with it or i better use RGB filters where i already said i hate to keep changing filters even inside automatic filter wheel? I can't trust the sky conditions in my area that i will be able to have like best 1-3 hours to collect RGB perfectly each and enough, what will be the difference between for example 2-3 hours OSC against 30min-1 hour RGB filters total?

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 12, 2023

OSC and UV/IR cut is all you need for stars only, that's the quickest way to go, and results will be fine; processing and exposure times are what matter most. You don't need Mono for stars, or a LP filter for stars. I've seen some of the best astrophotographers use OSC for stars and Mono for nebula emissions and galaxies, it's a little quicker than Mono for everything. And I have no experience with star exposure length, but I think no more than 30 minutes integration is enough for stars. I have little experience, so don't trust what I'm saying as total facts but only as what I've heard and seen over many forum threads.
Tareq Abdulla:
if i will use three scopes and cameras then i will leave or make one camera+scope dedicated for RGB stars only, so in this case should i go with OSC and UV/IR cut or LP filter to collect RGB and done with it or i better use RGB filters where i already said i hate to keep changing filters even inside automatic filter wheel? I can't trust the sky conditions in my area that i will be able to have like best 1-3 hours to collect RGB perfectly each and enough, what will be the difference between for example 2-3 hours OSC against 30min-1 hour RGB filters total?

Thank you very much

For or about exposures i was meaning single frame not total integration, because i will just leave the camera to capture RGB all long imaging session, be it 1 hour or 2 or 4, i won't just image RGB total for 30 minutes and stop, i will leave it imaging same period time of my NB filters, i don't need to shut down that RGB setup and leave NB setup working, but i was saying that for single frame exposure in RGB i will go for like 10-30 seconds or maximum 1 minute.

Nice to know that OSC is capable for stars only, i can afford OSC easier or quicker than affording a second mono IMX571, but both are good prices anyway, so i will wait and see more opinions and suggestions before i decide anything yet, you answered nicely and i appreciate it really.

Christian Großmann

Sep 12, 2023

Hi Tareq,

I don't really understand your question. You said you own both an OSC and a mono IMX571 sensor. So you should easily be able to know the differences from your own experience. Or maybe I misunderstood some things here? I can't even understand, why switching filters in a filter wheel is a problem for you. I use 7x2" filter wheels and have a set of LRGBHSO in both of them. Switching filters is a click or a trigger in the software. So it can't be easier and faster. If you have done a focus test and find the focuser differences from filter to filter, you may not even need to refocus. I never replace the filters in my wheels. With the IMX571 sensor you may be able to use 1,25" filters. If I remember correctly, there even was an 8x1,25" filter wheel made by ZWO. So there are quite a lot of options for you.

I use two Mono setups with filter wheels and one OSC camera with either CLS or UHC filters. I started with mono. As I began to use the OSC camera, I had a lot of trouble, because the sensitivity feels so much worse than the mono setups. I thought, there was something wrong with the camera itself. I had to adapt some settings and while you are able to record every color at the same time, you lose some time during the autofocus runs and during stacking of the subs. I much prefer the Mono setups. For me, there are two main things against the mono ones. One is money. You have to spend much more for a complete setup than for OSC. The other one is, that you usually invest some time to collect data while staying with one filter. So if the weather condition changes, you may need more nights to complete your data set. But with a proper focusing table you can even do one subframe and fastly switch to the next filter. But that's not how I work.

I love the concept of NB filters for OSC cameras. This concept works exceptionally well with Duoband-NB-Filters. We astro photographers are lucky to have the Ha line only in the red light while OIII is sharing blue and green. If you try to add another band, then things get tricky, because you may not be able to split the data afterwards. Unless you want to capture mainly those HOO images, you may not have much room to expand your view.

With a mono rig, you are much more flexible. Even if you don't change filters very often, you can if you need to. With OSC you are already limited. If money doesn't matter, without a doubt I always would buy a mono camera again.

CS

Christian

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 12, 2023

Christian Großmann:
Hi Tareq,

I don't really understand your question. You said you own both an OSC and a mono IMX571 sensor. So you should easily be able to know the differences from your own experience. Or maybe I misunderstood some things here? I can't even understand, why switching filters in a filter wheel is a problem for you. I use 7x2" filter wheels and have a set of LRGBHSO in both of them. Switching filters is a click or a trigger in the software. So it can't be easier and faster. If you have done a focus test and find the focuser differences from filter to filter, you may not even need to refocus. I never replace the filters in my wheels. With the IMX571 sensor you may be able to use 1,25" filters. If I remember correctly, there even was an 8x1,25" filter wheel made by ZWO. So there are quite a lot of options for you.

I use two Mono setups with filter wheels and one OSC camera with either CLS or UHC filters. I started with mono. As I began to use the OSC camera, I had a lot of trouble, because the sensitivity feels so much worse than the mono setups. I thought, there was something wrong with the camera itself. I had to adapt some settings and while you are able to record every color at the same time, you lose some time during the autofocus runs and during stacking of the subs. I much prefer the Mono setups. For me, there are two main things against the mono ones. One is money. You have to spend much more for a complete setup than for OSC. The other one is, that you usually invest some time to collect data while staying with one filter. So if the weather condition changes, you may need more nights to complete your data set. But with a proper focusing table you can even do one subframe and fastly switch to the next filter. But that's not how I work.

I love the concept of NB filters for OSC cameras. This concept works exceptionally well with Duoband-NB-Filters. We astro photographers are lucky to have the Ha line only in the red light while OIII is sharing blue and green. If you try to add another band, then things get tricky, because you may not be able to split the data afterwards. Unless you want to capture mainly those HOO images, you may not have much room to expand your view.

With a mono rig, you are much more flexible. Even if you don't change filters very often, you can if you need to. With OSC you are already limited. If money doesn't matter, without a doubt I always would buy a mono camera again.

CS

Christian

Hi Christian,

How are you? You have really nice and beautiful images in your gallery here, well done!

Well, i really feel like you already answered my questions or let's say you gave me scenarios where my questions coming from, so i will try to explain for you better, sorry if it wasn't clear from beginning.

I do have ZWO filter wheel 8x1.25", in the beginning i was using it for DSO with ASI1600MM that i bought it later in 2020, but i started astrophotography in 2017 with QHY163M and i added their filter wheel which is 7x36mm, that was my first FW ever, although i bought Astrodon Ha 5nm 1.25" but i didn't use it really until i was able to buy 1600mm and 1.25" wheel, but the time since or from 2018 i started planetary with small sensors planetary cameras, and because i needed filters there i bought 5x1.25" for that, later when i bought two 60mm doublets i ended up to remove QHY 7x36mm filter wheel and using 5x1.25" filter wheel with ASI1600 instead of 8x1.25" FW which i left it for planetary because i have so many filters for planetary, so changing filters for those scopes and cameras isn't an issue, but this is not the setup i am talking about, i talk about my 90mm APO triplets two of them and IMX571 two cameras one mono and one OSC, i bought the OSC first.

For that setup of 90mm triplet + 0.8x reducer + IMX571 i decided that for OSC i will use a dual band filter which i bought recently only, it is L-Ultimate which is 3nm for my LP Bortle 8/9 sometimes 7, and the mono with SII, so this way i can have SHO as much i can, how much good that Ha/OIII from OSC under LP i don't know, but so many results i see here telling me it is very possible and nice, so it is like settled now, two scopes and cameras for SHO, i hate stars from NB data, which means i should go with RGB stars for better results, in this case i will try to have best corrected setup to get that, or same setup i have but making sure i do perfect back focus and good filters so i don't have issues with stars such as halo or CA or anything else.

Now for RGB stars part, it can be done either by using OSC native, or RGB filters with mono, for RGB i feel like i don't like to check out the filter offset and checking out the focus for each to be sure they are all perfect focus, and i image one filter after another depending on the weather conditions i don't like, many nights it was ok but another nights it isn't, so i hate those kind of surprises and i am not willing to spend another nights only to complete RGB alone, but i don't mind going with RGB and mono if this is the only best thing i can do under my sky condition, just i don't want to miss the possibility of what OSC itself can do these days, and the sensor IMX571 sounds a great one, so i don't know if i should just go with OSC and i will be fine or i must go with mono and RGB filters, then i must buy RGB filters preferable 2" or 36" than 1.25" with APS-C, and definitely a filter wheel, now with 3 filters which filter wheel in the world that is only 3 slots or even 4 at most, i can add something like UV/IR cut or Lum there for focusing routine or even Lum to add to SHO and RGB if needed, but i feel that most my targets are either LHaRGB or SHO-RGB, and i said that i can have the opportunity to add forth one so if i go with all mono then i won't need any filter wheel except for RGB, or maybe i ignore the dual band filter and use three mono cameras for just SHO, in this case my OSC will be for RGB, now i focus on third option first without forth and keep that 4th option as possibility, what do you think?

My 36mm filters i am not much satisfied except LRGB, i will try to sell my SHO 36mm so i upgrade to something better, i already have dual band L-Ultimate 2" and Antlia Ha 3nm 2" and Optolong SII 3nm 2" all i bought with nice discount prices, only no OIII 2" alone yet, i can buy OSC or mono of APS-C again, but i have to decide which one for RGB only, i saw many did RGB stars with OSC and nice results, so i don't need to worry about focus each channel and weather changing, and even if the weather hits at least i will have RGB ready for processing even not long enough, i mean 1 hour OSC enough than maybe RGB filters where i only capture half an hour R and half and hour G and no blue, or barely RGB but one of them isn't enough mainly B due to weather.

CS

Tareq

Tom Boyd

Sep 12, 2023

OSC and UV/IR cut is all you need for stars only, that's the quickest way to go, and results will be fine; processing and exposure times are what matter most. You don't need Mono for stars, or a LP filter for stars. I've seen some of the best astrophotographers use OSC for stars and Mono for nebula emissions and galaxies, it's a little quicker than Mono for everything. And I have no experience with star exposure length, but I think no more than 30 minutes integration is enough for stars. I have little experience, so don't trust what I'm saying as total facts but only as what I've heard and seen over many forum threads.

I shoot with a 2600MC. For capturing the star field I use 30 minutes total exposure, with 30 second subs, dithered every second frame...

Tim Eriksen

Sep 12, 2023

I just got a 2600mm pro and have no regrets about leaving OSC behind. Since I mostly image from my b8 backyard I focus on NB mainly to combat the light pollution. My SHO filters are antlia 4.5nm 36mm filters. I haven't done any rgb imaging yet, but I plan on this weekend from the local darksite.

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 12, 2023

Tom Boyd:
OSC and UV/IR cut is all you need for stars only, that's the quickest way to go, and results will be fine; processing and exposure times are what matter most. You don't need Mono for stars, or a LP filter for stars. I've seen some of the best astrophotographers use OSC for stars and Mono for nebula emissions and galaxies, it's a little quicker than Mono for everything. And I have no experience with star exposure length, but I think no more than 30 minutes integration is enough for stars. I have little experience, so don't trust what I'm saying as total facts but only as what I've heard and seen over many forum threads.

I shoot with a 2600MC. For capturing the star field I use 30 minutes total exposure, with 30 second subs, dithered every second frame...

Nice, thank you very much

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 12, 2023

Tim Eriksen:
I just got a 2600mm pro and have no regrets about leaving OSC behind. Since I mostly image from my b8 backyard I focus on NB mainly to combat the light pollution. My SHO filters are antlia 4.5nm 36mm filters. I haven't done any rgb imaging yet, but I plan on this weekend from the local darksite.

That is good, we all have something to focus on, i will try to do RGB individually or separately, i am not much liking that NB stars.

noon

Sep 12, 2023

Tareq,
I’m with Christian. You seemed to convey that you were nervous about not being able to get equal amounts of integration time per RGB filter with the limited sky view, light pollution gradients, and weather. I’m not sure what you use for your capture software, but I know with NINA you can calculate your filter autofocus offsets so that you can quickly change filters without refocusing during your sequence. When I shoot RGB from my Bortle 8 backyard I generally use the advanced sequencer to shoot 5x 60 second exposures in each filter (R, G, B) then dither then roll back through the filters. That way my total number of subframes are within 5 of each filter. Also, if there is weather, or gradients, it affects all filters nearly evenly and doesn’t completely blow out just one. My autofocus is set to run every 45 minutes, or at a 0.5C temperature change… it focuses more in the beginning of the night and then less often through the night. I imagine other imaging software also allow for filter offset calculations for quick automated filter changes without autofocus delays.

My personal experience is that OSC is (only slightly) easier to shoot, and mono is easier to control/process. Since most of my time and brain bytes are consumed in the processing phase, that is the way I have leaned… My two OSC sit on my desk for the most part while the mono is on the OTA. I started with mono… got frustrated with the learning curve, moved to OSC… increased my skills… then went back to mono and haven’t looked back.

Ultimately, the camera that gives you the files that you are most comfortable working with should be the camera you use.

Helpful Engaging

SemiPro

IOTD Staff

Sep 13, 2023

Being in bortle 8/9 is all I need to know to tell you to go mono. I am blessed with the same sky conditions, and I have used both OSC and mono in them. Simply put, broadband either way is not a great time. If you want great images you are pretty much constrained to narrowband. Yes, you can get serviceable images in broadband, but they will never hold a candle to someone with less light pollution. Sometimes, reality sucks like that.

There is no contest here, go with monochrome. Narrowband with OSC is incredibly inefficient and you will not have a fun time trying to collect that data with high light pollution. The data is a real pain to work with and its always noisy as hell. Think about it, you are using 1/4 of your pixels to collect a tiny fraction of the light in the red channel for Ha. The colour combinations always look off too. Its easy to tell when someone used a duo-band filter with OSC as opposed to mono and unfortunately I do not mean that in a good way. There are a select few who can pull it off - and hats off to them - but being realistic you should just save yourself from that uphill battle and go monochrome. Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier for us in the middle of the city.

With monochrome you can create some amazing pictures, even from Bortle 8 and 9.

Flaming Star in HSO

Veil of the Veil

Full Moon Crescent - Redux

These are all images I have done in Bortle 8 or 9.

Helpful Engaging

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 13, 2023

Tareq,
I’m with Christian. You seemed to convey that you were nervous about not being able to get equal amounts of integration time per RGB filter with the limited sky view, light pollution gradients, and weather. I’m not sure what you use for your capture software, but I know with NINA you can calculate your filter autofocus offsets so that you can quickly change filters without refocusing during your sequence. When I shoot RGB from my Bortle 8 backyard I generally use the advanced sequencer to shoot 5x 60 second exposures in each filter (R, G, B) then dither then roll back through the filters. That way my total number of subframes are within 5 of each filter. Also, if there is weather, or gradients, it affects all filters nearly evenly and doesn’t completely blow out just one. My autofocus is set to run every 45 minutes, or at a 0.5C temperature change… it focuses more in the beginning of the night and then less often through the night. I imagine other imaging software also allow for filter offset calculations for quick automated filter changes without autofocus delays.

My personal experience is that OSC is (only slightly) easier to shoot, and mono is easier to control/process. Since most of my time and brain bytes are consumed in the processing phase, that is the way I have leaned… My two OSC sit on my desk for the most part while the mono is on the OTA. I started with mono… got frustrated with the learning curve, moved to OSC… increased my skills… then went back to mono and haven’t looked back.

Ultimately, the camera that gives you the files that you are most comfortable working with should be the camera you use.

I clearly mentioned that is for stars only, so didn't know that even for that and short exposure the mono is still the edge here, i mean it is always the edge regardless how long it needs.

I am using SGPro [or NINA if i want to stay up to date software and popular nowadays], it has that feature where it can rotate filters per number of frames i set and repeat so this way it will use all filters rather than waiting one to fully finish, i was thinking about this idea too, but i still feel like even if i will image with all filters there is always sudden time that some filters or one won't have enough chance, in all cases if i use OSC i will know that even one single frame i will have RGB data, so more will enhance it, but i want to know if processing OSC data even for just short exposures stars is still a headache, sounds it is fine but won't be as good and better controlled as OSC, i need to think about this part more really, thank you.

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 13, 2023

Being in bortle 8/9 is all I need to know to tell you to go mono. I am blessed with the same sky conditions, and I have used both OSC and mono in them. Simply put, broadband either way is not a great time. If you want great images you are pretty much constrained to narrowband. Yes, you can get serviceable images in broadband, but they will never hold a candle to someone with less light pollution. Sometimes, reality sucks like that.

There is no contest here, go with monochrome. Narrowband with OSC is incredibly inefficient and you will not have a fun time trying to collect that data with high light pollution. The data is a real pain to work with and its always noisy as hell. Think about it, you are using 1/4 of your pixels to collect a tiny fraction of the light in the red channel for Ha. The colour combinations always look off too. Its easy to tell when someone used a duo-band filter with OSC as opposed to mono and unfortunately I do not mean that in a good way. There are a select few who can pull it off - and hats off to them - but being realistic you should just save yourself from that uphill battle and go monochrome. Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier for us in the middle of the city.

With monochrome you can create some amazing pictures, even from Bortle 8 and 9.

Flaming Star in HSO

Veil of the Veil

Full Moon Crescent - Redux

These are all images I have done in Bortle 8 or 9.

You didn't get my point, i was asking about stars colors only, RGB, not nebulosity or background, i know how much better the mono is, i have mono and started with mono and got nice results with mono, but i never liked the stars colors from mono NB data anyway, so i was thinking if i will capture narrowbanding and i want to use true RGB stars colors then what i should use for RGB stars, OSC or mono even under bad LP???

Now if i decided to go with a second mono of same model camera i use so then i will end up with 3 cameras being two as mono and one as OSC, how i will use them all together for same or very similar setup for FOV, i do have a dual Nband filter and SII, i also have Ha filter, doing SHO there is always one filter will have least time imaging, so which one that will be? and what i will use that OSC camera for in B8/9 then?

SemiPro

IOTD Staff

Sep 13, 2023

Tareq Abdulla:
Being in bortle 8/9 is all I need to know to tell you to go mono. I am blessed with the same sky conditions, and I have used both OSC and mono in them. Simply put, broadband either way is not a great time. If you want great images you are pretty much constrained to narrowband. Yes, you can get serviceable images in broadband, but they will never hold a candle to someone with less light pollution. Sometimes, reality sucks like that.

There is no contest here, go with monochrome. Narrowband with OSC is incredibly inefficient and you will not have a fun time trying to collect that data with high light pollution. The data is a real pain to work with and its always noisy as hell. Think about it, you are using 1/4 of your pixels to collect a tiny fraction of the light in the red channel for Ha. The colour combinations always look off too. Its easy to tell when someone used a duo-band filter with OSC as opposed to mono and unfortunately I do not mean that in a good way. There are a select few who can pull it off - and hats off to them - but being realistic you should just save yourself from that uphill battle and go monochrome. Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier for us in the middle of the city.

With monochrome you can create some amazing pictures, even from Bortle 8 and 9.

Flaming Star in HSO

Veil of the Veil

Full Moon Crescent - Redux

These are all images I have done in Bortle 8 or 9.

You didn't get my point, i was asking about stars colors only, RGB, not nebulosity or background, i know how much better the mono is, i have mono and started with mono and got nice results with mono, but i never liked the stars colors from mono NB data anyway, so i was thinking if i will capture narrowbanding and i want to use true RGB stars colors then what i should use for RGB stars, OSC or mono even under bad LP???

Now if i decided to go with a second mono of same model camera i use so then i will end up with 3 cameras being two as mono and one as OSC, how i will use them all together for same or very similar setup for FOV, i do have a dual Nband filter and SII, i also have Ha filter, doing SHO there is always one filter will have least time imaging, so which one that will be? and what i will use that OSC camera for in B8/9 then?

You can always do the RGB stars with mono. Even if you plan on shooting broadband, you can use like an L-Pro or something as your luminance channel and shoot RGB as usual.

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 13, 2023

Confusing, L-Pro with OSC or mono you mean? If i want to do for example SHO+RGB or LSHORGB it means like i need 4 cameras, 3 mono for SHO alone and OSC for RGB, i asked here for RGB part only, if i will use RGB with mono it means i must use a filter wheel which i try to avoid, the minimum one is 5x2", so if RGB taking 3 then one for Lum, the fifth is for?

It is complicated for me, i want more and more setup so i need to plan it nicely, for now i have two of same setup, i was thinking i will give OSC a try with dual band filter, if that is good then it means either i buy second OSC for RGB, or mono as you said and use RGB filters, but once i buy a second mono for the setup then i should add Lum, because one mono will use SII, or if the target is either broadband or narrowband then i will use one mono and swap filter whenever i swap/change targets, but RGB stars are always nicer to have for everything and i want to fix this plan first.

Christian Großmann

Sep 13, 2023 · Edited: Sep 13, 2023

Hi Tareq,

I followed this discussion and I am not really sure, what the point is. I am sure, I use kind of a similar equipment as yours. It took me a crazy amount of money to buy 5 fully set up telescopes with all equipment attached (except for the cameras). I am able to generate nice images with just a mono camera and my filter wheel with LRGBHSO filters. So no need for anything more.

I guess, you want to capture your subs with multiple rigs at the same time? While that seems practical, it is quite an expensive solution.

However, I looked at your images here on AstroBin. I mainly looked at the images of your deep sky targets. Please don't get me wrong, but I think you have a lot of room to improve with your current equipment. I was interested especially in the total exposure times of your images. Beside the fact that image processing is not the most interesting thing for everyone (including myself), you should invest some time in this topic. But it can only be as good as the subs you use. From a Bortle 8/9 region, 1 hour exposure time for NB per filter seems really not enough in my opinion. If you try to invest much more total exposure time, your images will improve really drastic. I would assume, that most of the images here (NB) are around the 8 hour mark or even longer. I'd go for much more nowadays.

I'm feeling a bit sad to say this, but I think the star colors are not your main problem. AP all depends on time. You can't beat physics with the current devices on the market and knowing about your envirenment, you have to increase your total exposure time. If you need star colors for your images, they can be done with either a Mono or OSC in much less time than your NB images need. So I wouldn't care about new equipment (I know it's hard) and use your current camera with LRGB first. Try it as @noon has suggested. This seems pretty consistant. Try mainly some other stuff for the moment. If you improved, you should come back and ask your question again. Maybe things are clearer then for you.

I'm really sorry to say this, but this is what would've helped me so much some time ago. I had to force myself to follow the advices from some folks here at AstroBin. It changed everything for me...

CS

Christian

Helpful

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 14, 2023

Christian Großmann:
Hi Tareq,

I followed this discussion and I am not really sure, what the point is. I am sure, I use kind of a similar equipment as yours. It took me a crazy amount of money to buy 5 fully set up telescopes with all equipment attached (except for the cameras). I am able to generate nice images with just a mono camera and my filter wheel with LRGBHSO filters. So no need for anything more.

I guess, you want to capture your subs with multiple rigs at the same time? While that seems practical, it is quite an expensive solution.

However, I looked at your images here on AstroBin. I mainly looked at the images of your deep sky targets. Please don't get me wrong, but I think you have a lot of room to improve with your current equipment. I was interested especially in the total exposure times of your images. Beside the fact that image processing is not the most interesting thing for everyone (including myself), you should invest some time in this topic. But it can only be as good as the subs you use. From a Bortle 8/9 region, 1 hour exposure time for NB per filter seems really not enough in my opinion. If you try to invest much more total exposure time, your images will improve really drastic. I would assume, that most of the images here (NB) are around the 8 hour mark or even longer. I'd go for much more nowadays.

I'm feeling a bit sad to say this, but I think the star colors are not your main problem. AP all depends on time. You can't beat physics with the current devices on the market and knowing about your envirenment, you have to increase your total exposure time. If you need star colors for your images, they can be done with either a Mono or OSC in much less time than your NB images need. So I wouldn't care about new equipment (I know it's hard) and use your current camera with LRGB first. Try it as @noon has suggested. This seems pretty consistant. Try mainly some other stuff for the moment. If you improved, you should come back and ask your question again. Maybe things are clearer then for you.

I'm really sorry to say this, but this is what would've helped me so much some time ago. I had to force myself to follow the advices from some folks here at AstroBin. It changed everything for me...

CS

Christian

Hi Christian,

I understand clearly your point, the total integration time, well, you didn't follow my journey, this is exactly my main problem i have, and i try to solve it my way, now while i am solving it i got into like bonus solutions to help me, so what i ask here in this topic here is a small part or just small percentage of the big plan, so i won't discuss about total integration time, because i plan for this since years, i bought multiple imaging system PRECISELY for this purpose, two same triplet scopes and two same sensor cameras one is mono and one is OSC, my astrobin DSO isn't my main serious one, i was only testing, i have another with more time integration that i didn't show or uploaded here, my problem is i hate to spend like 2-10 nights capturing one single data to finish, mainly from Bortle 8/9 which i know i need more time, with one setup if i want something like 8 hours it means i need more nights which is too much, i might spend like 3-4 nights per target once or twice, i did it and i hated, so i decided i will never do it again, and thus the multi imaging setup idea.

Asking for RGB stars is part of the plan above, i did image narrowbanding for 1-8 hours before, i didn't like the stars generated from NB data even if i process it alone and back, i never satisfied, i just use it because i don't have another stars to use, so i decided i will image RGB stars, now if i have only one camera or even two and i use it to capture many different channels data this will affect my nights spending for total integration time, thus i decided i have to separate channels into setup, i know it is expensive, but i am doing it anyway, i don't need to buy hundreds or even tenths, but something like 2-4 same/similar setup will do the job for long long time or forever, already started, want to complete it later as soon as possible, i saw a new telescope in the market came out very recent i think this month or end of last month, this is like a third scope choice, and then i just need a camera to match, and with that if i will have three cameras and scopes with the idea of forth setup in future i wanted to manage it well, i know it is expensive, it is the only idea that will keep me imaging for long time integration under my sky, having many setup to do and end up with one is better for me than using only one setup wishing and regretting always that i don't have more which is the case happened to me all past years, so that i stopped imaging.

Again, for narrowbanding i almost done having the setup to image for hours without wasting time, 1-2 nights will be enough with two setup for NB, i know that RGB isn't much exposure time taking, but i really want to keep that also separate from NB setup, in fact even for Lum filter alone i will use individual setup so i can capture Lum ALL night long i will have, 2-4 maybe, if not enough then another 2-4 nights for Lum, then i end up with enough data, this will never happen if i use a mono camera shared with many filters, you and others are ready to spend whole week or month capturing one target with all filters is understandable, cheers for you, i can't or i say i don't like to do it at all, so not talking about NB setup, now for RGB setup only, should i just use OSC and done with it even under Bortle 8/9 or i must use RGB filters with mono for RGB only? I hope this is very clear straight forward question, i am not asking which is better camera for NB, i am asking which is good enough and practical for RGB stars signal, mono is always nice, but does stars of short integration time really show the difference here?

CS

Tareq

noon

Sep 14, 2023

If you are just looking at this for RGB stars I recommend checking out the IOTD feed and scrolling through what guys seem to be doing for stars. I tend to see mostly mono/RGB over OSC and I find everything from 8-10 minutes of 30 second exposures per channel to 1-3 hours per channel of the stars. The stars give a lot of signal in very little time and if you are extracting the stars from the background with Star Xterminator or something similar I’m not sure whether background gradients will even matter so much.

I would be more concerned with sensor flatness than the type of sensor… if I were to have an entire extra telescope just for star color, making sure the star FOV matches the DSO FOV and the
backspacing/sensor flatness were spot on for the tightest roundest stars possible out to the corners. But that is just based on my workflow; I’d add the stars back in as the last step. You are likely fine with either sensor.

CS

Helpful Insightful

Tareq Abdulla

Topic starter

Sep 14, 2023

If you are just looking at this for RGB stars I recommend checking out the IOTD feed and scrolling through what guys seem to be doing for stars. I tend to see mostly mono/RGB over OSC and I find everything from 8-10 minutes of 30 second exposures per channel to 1-3 hours per channel of the stars. The stars give a lot of signal in very little time and if you are extracting the stars from the background with Star Xterminator or something similar I’m not sure whether background gradients will even matter so much.

I would be more concerned with sensor flatness than the type of sensor… if I were to have an entire extra telescope just for star color, making sure the star FOV matches the DSO FOV and the
backspacing/sensor flatness were spot on for the tightest roundest stars possible out to the corners. But that is just based on my workflow; I’d add the stars back in as the last step. You are likely fine with either sensor.

CS

Those are steps or procedures i am working on, i thought about a perfect scope for stars matching my main FOV setup, i was thinking to go with same aperture of main DSO setup, but then i thought for stars it doesn't matter as long i can have perfect stars, so if i use 90mm or up to 102mm for main DSO i don't mind using 70 or 80mm for stars only, so i will think about something like Petzval or Quintuplet where i don't need to worry about backfocus at all, but will that be also good enough for stars CA?!!!

I looked at so so many images not just IOTD, i saw many used mono or OSC just fine for RGB stars, i even saw people used OSC for narrowbanding, so if it is possible for NB why not RGB, i have time to think, maybe i was looking for an answer telling me that quality is very important than exposure time saving or the opposite, with OSC i know i can always focus once and never think about it until it is done without using filter wheels or drawer and such, but if the quality at the end won't be that good enough to be used from Bortle 8/9 then maybe i have to just use RGB filters with mono, but i don't know if it is only the factor of mono+filters or the scope is also part of final quality of stars.

I do have FRA400 which is 400mm focal length as native, it is a 72mm scope and a Quintuplet, so it is corrected already for flatness, not sure if it is corrected also for CA, i believe it is maybe 3 + 2 so in this case it is corrected for both, but if it is 2 + 3 which means a doublet plus 3 optics flattener then most likely it is not fully perfect, but who care or know if i can correct CA later if it is there, i wish to buy something like 80-90 Petzval to stay within or close to my main setup of 90mm f/6 + 0.8x reducer = 432mm, but i have time to think about that, my eye and mind is on a new scope which is 103mm f/6.8, they produced 0.6x reducer for it with not great stars quality say halo or minimal CA there, but it will give me 420mm, so close to 432mm, then i can think about whatever scope for RGB at almost same FOV/FL, my Askar FRA400 is 400 connected to 4/3", i think this is close to 432mm with APS-C, i will buy more EQ mount affordable so i can use many setup at once and not worry much about dithering or guiding.

Which camera type/mode do you recommend for RGB only?