Small telescope and Star tracker for beginner astrophotography - Forums

Topic starter

Aug 30, 2023

Hi,

I am currently looking for a small refractor telescope to begin astrophotography in the 300-450mm FL range. As I was searching for an ideal scope I very frecuently stumbled upon the WO Zenithstar Z61 and the Redcat 51. They both seem to be great scopes. I really like the design of the Redcat and I also like that you don't need an extra field flattener. But with 250mm FL I think that it might not be so versatile like the Zenithstar Z61 which has 360mm FL. Its aperture is also - as the name says - 10mm larger. The Redcat 51 costs about 1200€ and the Zenithstar is only about 900€. But as you also need the Field Flattener (Flat 61A), which costs approximately 300€, so that they both cost 1200€ in the end. Now I don't really know what's the better option. At the moment I am thinking that I will be happier with the Zenithstar Z61 because of its larger aperture and FL. But I am unsure if I should go for the Redcat 51, just because it has more optical elements, or if I should decide for the Zenithstar Z61, because you basically get more FL and a larger aperture for the same price.

Now to the second topic:
I also want to be able to take longer exposures with the telescope. For that I obviously need a star tracker. I found the sky watcher star adventurer 2i pro pack and the star adventurer gti to be really good mounts at my price range. The star adventurer gti would have the GoTo option wich I think would be extremely helpful, because I don't have that much expierience as I am a complete beginner. At the moment the star adventurer 2i pro costs about 480€ and the star adventurer gti is about 630€. With the star watcher I also have the option to include a tripod into my order. It costs about 100€, so the gti would cost 730€ in the end. With the star adventurer 2i pro there is no tripod included, but it would also add 100€ which will result to 580€.
Another advantage of the gti is that it tracks on both axes, which apperently makes future auto guiding possible (or easier). As both scopes are really light with a weight of about 1,5kg, there should be no problem with the maximum payload of both mounts which is 5kg - even with accessories.
I want to mainly shoot nebulae (diffuse nebulae).

Because I already have a 10" dobsonian telescope with 1200mm FL (Skywatcher Classic 250) , which is mainly used for visual observing at the moment, there is an argument to say that for the combined price of the refractor telescope and the star tracker, which is about 2000€ I could also get a eq6 or something in that price range which can support at least 18 - 20kg, but my goal is to build a portable astrophotography setup, which I can take to a dark sky and just shoot. With a heavy eq6 and a 12+kg telescope I can't really travel. Also the polar alignment at my home isn't that easy, because from where I can see polaris, there are a lot of (easier) targets which I can't capture from there. But as I said, the main point is, that I want my setup to be portable. In a few years maybe I will buy a eq6 for my dobsonian. But as of now, I think that my money is better spent on a beginner friendly telescope and a star tracker instead of a heavy, non portable mount.

So with everything taken into consideration, I would like to ask the community to give some comments and thoughts on which would be the best choice in your opinion.

Thanks in advance!

Xenofon Nastos

Aug 31, 2023 · Edited: Aug 31, 2023

Hi,

I can't give any advice about the scopes you mentioned but I can share my experiences in regards of a mobile setup.
I have tried a couple of setups during my last flights to Greece and La Palma and have finally found a setup that is suitable especially
for flights where the weight is crucial.
I began taking my EQ5 together with my ZWO equipment (ASI183, EFW, EAF, Guidescope, ASI120MC,...), apo + Laptop for control, sequencing, etc.
All in all much to heavy and bulky for flights (>30Kg).

At the end I was at the same point deciding between the Gti and the star adventurer. In terms of an ultra mobile setup I decided for the star adventurer.
This is the actual setup I take with me for the next flight next Sunday:

My new ultra mobile 4Kg Setup

The circumstance that the setup isn't goto capable I compensate with the capabilities of the ZWO ASIAIR Pro. You can use the ASIAIR
in order to do fine PA and manually position your scope towards the objects via platesolving and manual move. This takes of course
longer in comparison to a goto mount but it works fine. Of course guiding and dithering via ASIAIR works only for RA, you need a good PA.
As a scope I use an ASKAR ACL 200 triplet APO, is a great scope even for usage with full frame sensors. I only need a 12V power source
for the ASIAIR Pro. A lightweight aluminum tripod completes the setup. All in all 9 Kg weight incuding the counter weight for the tracker.

I hope the information is helpful to find a setup for yourself.

Helpful

Jens

Aug 31, 2023 · Edited: Aug 31, 2023

Hey Luke

I can tell you about my experiences with starting in astrophotography.

I bought the William Optics Zenith star 61 and I am very happy with it. The Focal lenght of 360mm is just enough to get satisfyingly close to targets,
I feel like the Redcat 51 with it's 250mm would be a bit to short for me. By having cameras with different sensor sizes you can also get a different field of views. for such a small scope the Z61 is really a great way to get into astrophotography. the field flattener is also not a problem at all, it works really well.

I started out with the Star Adventurer 1 and it worked well for a lot of things, it forced me to get to know the nightsky and to learn where what is located and to navigate around it. That knowlege is something I'm really happy about having. It is also very small and easy to carry around. I now upgraded to the GTI and it works really well if used right. Those two mounts have one issue I ran into and you'll probably will run into as well, and that is walking noise. Both of these don't support dithering in their default app. This is a function that moves the mount inbetween the frames just a little bit in a random direction so that the static noise in the image doesn't stack up. That is really frustrating because even if you're perfectly on the target and get a lot of integration time, the image won't turn out as clean as you'd like it to be. I now use the gti with a laptop in order to use dither, which is limiting the portability of my equipment but it works.

I would recommend you to go with the Star adventurer 2i which supports dithering in their app. I think to start out that is a great simple Package to learn your way around astrophotography and as soon as you get to grips with it don't hold back on upgrading to the GTI.

One of the most important things when working with such a small startracker, is to get a good an maybe heavy tripod that isn't knocked over quickly.
That has been one of the best upgrades to my setup.
I went from a normal manfrotto to a EQ5 Tripod with a Berlenbach Adapter for the Star adventurer. Best purchase ever.

If you have any question feel free to dm me as well

Helpful Engaging Supportive

dkamen

Aug 31, 2023

Hi Luke,

The RedCat is 1.5kg, but I think you got the ZS61 wrong, according to William Optics it weighs 2.15 kg. You should also add a flattener which will is another 270g so you are practically 1 kilo above the RedCat and dangerously close to the maximum practical payload of the Star Adventurer for long exposures which is half the theoretical, especially if your camera is a DSLR i.e. another ~0.5kg weight.

Astrophotography is not like visual: the two scopes yield comparable fields of view/magnification, while 1.5kg@f/5 beats 2.5kg@f/6 hands down.

Since you have a 10" Dob, you are probably good at finding things in the ight sky through star hopping and the suchlike so I am not sure you need the GoTo capabilities, especially for such wide fields. So you might want to consider a plain version of the Star Adventurer which is both more portable and cheaper. The polar wedge is also a nice addition, but not strictly required. You won't need an expensive tripod, just something reasonably sturdy that can take the total weight. I have one since 2015 and I combine it with a Nikon D7500 and a Samyang 135mm. With 4 AA batteries (the GTi needs 8), it can track for 30+ hours when the night temperature is reasonable. It is the combo I enjoy and use the most, as portable as can possibly get.

Cheers,
Dimitris

Helpful Insightful Respectful Engaging

Jens

Aug 31, 2023

The weight is the last thing you need to worry about with this kit. It works perfectly with the mount. I think max payload is 5Kg for these mounts, it has never been remotely an issue for me. I'd take the Z61 if i'd have to choose again. I would opt for the Z61 II though not the first version. The mounting brackets are something I'm really missing with the first version.

Nikolas Konstantinou Kakopsitos

Aug 31, 2023

So I believe that your best choice is to go with the "Skywatcher 72ED" which is around 450-500 euro and a few more euros for the flattener.
And for the mount you can either go for the "SkyWatcher Star Adventurer GTi".
I know that the 72ED it might not be as "good" as the scopes you mentioned but I believe that for its price, it's an amazing scope for astrophotography.
And you can spend more money to buy a better mount, which is a wise decision.
This is my opinion though.
I hope I helped you with my comment.

Clear skies! 🔭

Respectful Supportive

Oscar

Sep 1, 2023 · Edited: Sep 1, 2023

@Luke-Official I compiled a little comparative list for you to decide what's best for you. Only Petzvel refractors under 1200€. I will also provide top pick nomination images from the AB gallery for every telescope, just if you want to see star shapes or something.

LIGHTEST TO HEAVIEST:
1. 797€ - WO Redcat 51 - FL: 250 - FR: F/4.9 - 1.76kg OTA gross weight* - aperture: 51mm
A top pick nomination with this telescope https://astrob.in/cytm5k/0/

2. 921€ - Askar 65PHQ - FL: 416 - FR: F/6.4 - 2.8kg OTA gross weight - aperture: 65mm
A top pick nomination with this one https://astrob.in/jqbd2q/0/

3. 875€ - Askar FRA300 - FL: 300 - FR: F/5 - 3.1kg OTA gross weight - aperture: 60mm
A top pick nomination with this one https://astrob.in/vk85f6/0/

4. 1105€ - Askar FRA400 - FL: 400 - FR: F/5.6 - 3.2kg OTA gross weight - aperture: 72mm
A top pick nomination with this one https://astrob.in/m9vm6w/0/

I cannot recommend you the ZWO FF65, I don't know how it performs, but the optical specifications look like an exact copy of the 65PHQ.

*gross weight means the weight of the OTA with included necessary accessories such as the rings and dovetail rail

Helpful

B0bby White

Sep 1, 2023

I'll try throw in some pronc about WO RedCat 51:
- it has built in tilter and rotator. If your camera don't have build in tilter (like mine), it's required option.
- it has place (carving) for 2" filter (good option for OSC camera)
- petzval very tolerant for backfocus.

All this little stuff can make your hobby much comfort and yield greater results.

And just one thought: long FL not always advantage in astrophotography (it's demand much more stable mount).

Antonio Parisi

Sep 1, 2023

Hi,
if you want to have something which retains the value and can be used for observing as well and very compact it comes with a retractable dew shield and it's 2.4 kg:

takahashi fc-76ds

it's a flourite doublet comparable with a a triplet with the flattener or the reducer AT PRIME FOCUSFocal length570 mmFocal ratioF/7.5for observation or long integration time WITH 76D-RD FOCAL REDUCERFocal length417 mmFocal ratioF/5.5

Best
Antonio
ps: there is a 60 version as well 1.6kg at aobut 800Euros and a 100df 3.7kg around 2500 Euros.

Leonidas

Sep 1, 2023

I started out with a very similar analysis and set of considerations. I went with a 60mm refractor and original Star Adventurer. I found that I quickly wanted more out of my setup, especially the mount. I later went to an EQ6R-Pro, which I personally do not find to be very portable. I don't think you will go wrong with the scope, although I would lean toward the Redcat at this point myself. I would point you to start with a mount that can take you further - I have been thinking about getting one of the lighter payload iOptron mounts (CEM 26 or GEM 28) for portability. Just a few thoughts as this all sounded very familiar to me. Good luck.

Well Written Concise Supportive

Antonio Parisi

Sep 1, 2023

Leonidas:
I started out with a very similar analysis and set of considerations. I went with a 60mm refractor and original Star Adventurer. I found that I quickly wanted more out of my setup, especially the mount. I later went to an EQ6R-Pro, which I personally do not find to be very portable. I don't think you will go wrong with the scope, although I would lean toward the Redcat at this point myself. I would point you to start with a mount that can take you further - I have been thinking about getting one of the lighter payload iOptron mounts (CEM 26 or GEM 28) for portability. Just a few thoughts as this all sounded very familiar to me. Good luck.

Hem15 is half the weight and same load capacity at the same price but you need autoguiding already above 200mm

Lukas Bauer

Topic starter

Sep 1, 2023

First of all thank you for all the feedback and advice!

Coincidentally I had the opportunity to visit an observatory (AZM Martinsberg) last night (because of blue supermoon) and also asked them what they would recommend. They told me that it would be better to buy a 6" newtonian f/4, f/5 and a eq5, eqm 35 pro or a heq5 (Any mount that supports about 10kg minimum) instead of a refractor. It would also be necessary to buy a guide scope/camera because of the longer focal length. They also recommended a spezific shop in vienna because there is someone that could help me in my situation perfectly. I'm also going to drive to another local astrophotographer and ask him what he thinks.
But what I found so far is, that a newtonian (tube only) with coma corrector is available for around 500€. And the mount is about 1000€. If you add a guide scope and camera (scope + camera: approx. 200€ + 150€) that adds up to about 1800-1900€ for what I've read also results in better image quality. Of course you have to deal with other problems too (collimation etc.). But that shouldn't be too big of a problem as I have a uncle that does astrophotography for several years now and knows how to collimate and will be happy to show me how it's done (he also collimated my 10" dobsonian). But if I buy a reflector and field flattener with a star advdenturer that would also come out to about 1800-2000€. But without guide scope and camera.

MY question: What do you guys think of getting a 6" newtonian, a mount with payload +10kg and a guide scope with camera. I think that it could be a good choice even though it's probably on the edge of being protable because it is heavier and you also need a laptop. But I think that shouldn't be a big problem.

Some people suggested to start with a small lens and the simple star adventurer 2i and then upgrade from there but that's unfortunately not possible as I only have my set amount of money at the moment and won't get enough to buy something new until 1-2 years because I am a student and still have 3 years to go till I earn money on my own. So I'm looking for something that is not impossible to use and comprehend as a beginner but is still very good so I will be happy for many years. Because if I buy a star adventurer 2i for example and in half a year I notice that the payload is not high enough or something else isn't right then I don't have enough money to just buy a new one or even a more expensive one. And because many people now said that the best choice for my situation would be a newtonian because even some advanced astrophotographs (or most) use a big reflector and I can take nice pictures even when I'm deeper into the hobby than noticing after some time that maybe 360 mm is too short for me and I want a larger telescope.

Thanks for your comments!

Respectful

Xenofon Nastos

Sep 1, 2023

First of all thank you for all the feedback and advice!

Coincidentally I had the opportunity to visit an observatory (AZM Martinsberg) last night (because of blue supermoon) and also asked them what they would recommend. They told me that it would be better to buy a 6" newtonian f/4, f/5 and a eq5, eqm 35 pro or a heq5 (Any mount that supports about 10kg minimum) instead of a refractor. It would also be necessary to buy a guide scope/camera because of the longer focal length. They also recommended a spezific shop in vienna because there is someone that could help me in my situation perfectly. I'm also going to drive to another local astrophotographer and ask him what he thinks.
But what I found so far is, that a newtonian (tube only) with coma corrector is available for around 500€. And the mount is about 1000€. If you add a guide scope and camera (scope + camera: approx. 200€ + 150€) that adds up to about 1800-1900€ for what I've read also results in better image quality. Of course you have to deal with other problems too (collimation etc.). But that shouldn't be too big of a problem as I have a uncle that does astrophotography for several years now and knows how to collimate and will be happy to show me how it's done (he also collimated my 10" dobsonian). But if I buy a reflector and field flattener with a star advdenturer that would also come out to about 1800-2000€. But without guide scope and camera.

MY question: What do you guys think of getting a 6" newtonian, a mount with payload +10kg and a guide scope with camera. I think that it could be a good choice even though it's probably on the edge of being protable because it is heavier and you also need a laptop. But I think that shouldn't be a big problem.

Some people suggested to start with a small lens and the simple star adventurer 2i and then upgrade from there but that's unfortunately not possible as I only have my set amount of money at the moment and won't get enough to buy something new until 1-2 years because I am a student and still have 3 years to go till I earn money on my own. So I'm looking for something that is not impossible to use and comprehend as a beginner but is still very good so I will be happy for many years. Because if I buy a star adventurer 2i for example and in half a year I notice that the payload is not high enough or something else isn't right then I don't have enough money to just buy a new one or even a more expensive one. And because many people now said that the best choice for my situation would be a newtonian because even some advanced astrophotographs (or most) use a big reflector and I can take nice pictures even when I'm deeper into the hobby than noticing after some time that maybe 360 mm is too short for me and I want a larger telescope.

Thanks for your comments!

Hi Luke,
if you go for such a mount I would recommend a HEQ5. You don't necessarily need a laptop, an ASIAIR astrocomputer fits perfectly, is small portable and is equiped with everything needed for EAA.
CS,
Xeno

Concise

dkamen

Sep 1, 2023 · Edited: Sep 1, 2023

There is no question a newtonian coupled with a guide scope can produce better pictures than a small refractor or camera lens on a tracker, but it is not portable and you cannot just take it out and start shooting.

Also, a 750mm newt is not a scope that can do what the 360mm frac can + extra things. This is like thinking a 50mm lens can take the same pictures a 25mm lens can plus some more. In reality the 25mm lens is better for specific subjects such as natural landscapes and the 50mm lens is better for other subjects such as human portraits.

It is the same in astrophotography. Small galaxies or planets are not "one step up" from wide fields. They are just a different subject with different intricacies, different learning curves, different tools and different (very lengthy) paths to becoming advanced.

Cheers,
Dimitris

Helpful Insightful Respectful Engaging

Xenofon Nastos

Sep 2, 2023

There is no question a newtonian coupled with a guide scope can produce better pictures than a small refractor or camera lens on a tracker, but it is not portable and you cannot just take it out and start shooting.

Also, a 750mm newt is not a scope that can do what the 360mm frac can + extra things. This is like thinking a 50mm lens can take the same pictures a 25mm lens can plus some more. In reality the 25mm lens is better for specific subjects such as natural landscapes and the 50mm lens is better for other subjects such as human portraits.

It is the same in astrophotography. Small galaxies or planets are not "one step up" from wide fields. They are just a different subject with different intricacies, different learning curves, different tools and different (very lengthy) paths to becoming advanced.

Cheers,
Dimitris

Hi iDmitris,
why is a 6" newtonian not portable? Portability is defined by where do you have to take the scope with you. For a flight I would give you right, for driving with a car out to the field I would say it works very well.
And there is also the aspect money, a middle range Newtonian is cheaper than a middle range Apochromatic refractor.
There is nothing wrong to start with a 6" Newtonian

CS,
Xeno

Concise

pabloa

Sep 11, 2023

Hi Luke

With a similar equipment, I needed 2 years before getting limited with it.
First if you don't have extra money to spend, you won't have new telescopes and therefore no payload issues.
Second you have different targets all year long. And so much to learn.

If you want to shoot nebulae, a filter is also a good investment if you live in a polluted area. As well as an unfiltered camera.
A pointer will also be useful for star hoping. And a dew heater for Austrian winters.
All this adds up in terms of cost.

That said, today I wish I had bought a mount that was capable of auto-guiding in both axes. This is certainly not something to start with (you will loose too much time to set up everything in the beginning and risk to loose passion) but a necessary step at some point in time.

I hope that helps

Have fun
Pablo

Helpful

vi100

Sep 11, 2023

Hello,

For a portable mount consider the Explorer Scientific IEXOS-100 PMC-Eight Goto Wifi that includes tripod and all the capabilities that a full mount can give you but in a very small package.

Clar skies.

Markus Selbach

Sep 11, 2023

I can only tell you that the combination Redcat51 and Star Adventurer 2i is a setup that works very well and will allow you enough targets for some years (depending on the number of clear skies where you live ;) ).
Maybe use the frameing assistant in apps like sky guide to test FOV for different lens and camera combinations to see how much targets you are able to frame nicely with 250mm.
But I would recomment to invest in guide scope and camera as well as the benefit of long exposures and dithering is huge. Without guiding you are limited with this setup to 60-90 sec exposures). This can be enough under really dark skies but if you live under bortle 5 or worse then there are filters that reduce the impact of light pollution but will require much longer exposures.
I'm missing the comfort of a GoTo mount but that only comfort. Filters and guiding helped me to really reduce limitations and get more out of each session (without guiding I throwed away minimum one third of my subs because of periodic error).

Best,
Markus

Helpful

Ed Dixon

Sep 11, 2023 · Edited: Sep 11, 2023

Astrophotography tends to be a journey with many stops. While a reasonable mount and scope are typical for the first two, it doesn't end there. You will quickly need an astro camera and guide scope/camera.

For those that stick with it, multiple scopes is the norm. Then there an assortment of other accessories needed… Portability is a common thing mentioned, but that comes in many forms. Driving is one thing, but airplane flights are a completely different situation. Most small scopes and mounts move easily with cars.

In real estate its location, location, location. In AP its mount, mount, mount. Starting with something that handles reasonable loads (more than 10 lb), does autoguiding, has GOTO, is EQ based is a good plan.

I have a HEM27 which works well for me, but it's not cheap. I also have a WO Z61 along with 5 other scopes. I also have a SkyGuider Pro rotator mount which works well with just a regular DSLR and long lens.

Welcome to the journey.

Helpful