What difference would a triplet make?

Piers PalmerentaSean Mc
30 replies1.5k views
Piers Palmer avatar
I've got a Vixen SD81S II; a doublet using FPL53 glass. I use it in conjunction with a dedicated flattener/reducer (495mm at f/6)

Last night I managed to get this (with an ASI2600MC Pro). 

Elephant Trunk Nebula

What difference would a triplet make? Any? I can't see any CA on the stars. The stars have nice colours. They look pretty tight to me. 

I ask because in the past I've suffered dreadfully from gear acquisition syndrome, but now I would need something to make things noticeably better to even be considered.  Is there anything about this shot which screams "doublet"? Basically, is the scope limiting what's possible?
Coolhandjo avatar
OK so I would also like to know. i suppose it would mean less abboration, more sharpness, and thus less post processing in parts.
Joe Linington avatar
The test of a doublet is shooting RGB or in your case with a UV/IR filter. The area most affected by a doublet is purposefully deep into the blue spectrum, usually below 420nm. If you have any fringing then you can use slightly narrower filters to kill most of it. My FPL51 doublet responds well to using an Astronomik L3 UV/IR filter and in the case of mono imaging, using a slightly narrower blue filter like the Antlia of Astronomik sets. Most of the light pollution filters like the L-Pro would also kill the deep blues and reduce any fringing. 

In short, test with a super wide UV/IR to see if you need to do anything, then try an L3 or L-Pro and see if you are happy. I love my doublet and have no urge to upgrade. The L3 filter was far less expensive than the cost difference of an equivalent triplet and I rarely image RGB.
Piers Palmer avatar
Ah ok; but I think the 2600mc pro has a cut filter built-in?  I’m shot the linked image with a NBZ dual band it as I’m in a Bortle 3 zone (my sqm reading last night was 21.36) so maybe I could simply shoot without one with decent results. That’s a different question…just rambling!
Tom Boyd avatar
Piers Palmer:
Ah ok; but I think the 2600mc pro has a cut filter built-in?  I’m shot the linked image with a NBZ dual band it as I’m in a Bortle 3 zone (my sqm reading last night was 21.36) so maybe I could simply shoot without one with decent results. That’s a different question…just rambling!

Correct. The protect window on the camera is itself a UVIR filter:

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/manuals/ASI2600_Manual_EN.pdf
Joe Linington avatar
In a B3, you most certainly can shoot without a filter. It will look different though. As a comparison, this is my wide shot of Monoceros using an NBZ and a modified Sony SLR, next is an shot with a Canon SLR with no filter and third is a fantastic shot using a mono astrocam with SHO filters using the HSO palette and very deep integration. You can see my shot didn't catch the dust at all, I also didn't catch near as much Oiii as both of the others. Only the RGB shot catches all of the dust and background and neither NB shots can see that but the NB shots are cleaner and less busy. The RGB shot doesn't catch as much of the background Ha structure.





Mike H - Sky View Observatory avatar
This happened to me. I had a WO Zenithstar 73 which is a doublet with FPL-53. I became convinced that a WO GT81 which is a triplet with FPL-53 would be better. Your Elephant Trunk Nebula looks pretty good to me. However, I'm not a big pixel peeper. I bought the GT81 and sold my Zenithstar. Granted there's a tiny bit more aperture. I saw a little bloating in the stars of my doublet that I definetly don't see now in the triplet. Overall was it worth it? Probably not. But I'm personally more satisfied with the GT81. I think the stars are tighter and overall the objects are sharper. I admit this sharper thing could be my imagination. The increase in aperture and the triplet made me happier in thinking I'm getting the best data possible. It's a mental thing sometimes smile It's the illusive "being satisfied" with what you have. That's why they call astrophotograhy a very deep rabbit hole. 


Mike
Sean Mc avatar
Honestly, that image you took looks pretty good. Maybe try more integration time, and reducing the star sizes during processing before ditching the scope?  Also - personal preference - sometimes I like little tiny stars but sometimes I think not so tiny stars with a little color look better.
Piers Palmer avatar
Thanks both. I did have an FRA 400 once and that have pinpoint stars but I could never get any colour in them so maybe the “bloat” helps a bit with that. 

I struggle a bit with integration time at the moment as I’m quite far north and we only have 4 hours of darkness at the moment and very few clear nights, but I’ll definitely keep going this autumn/winter and get to grips with multiple sessions. 

The thing going through my mind is an Esprit 100 would give me more aperture and be a bit faster…but my Vixen is paid for and seems decent.

I’ll get drunk one night and buy something!
Sean Mc avatar
And then you’ll run into tilt, or collimation issues lol !
dkamen avatar
I think you have a great telescope.
Björn Arnold avatar
Your scope seems to perform well. To make a better judgement, you should take single exposures of bright stars (like Vega) without special filters (use L-only if your camera doesn't block IR) and see if you notice significant color fringing.
I've taken a look at the Iris nebula of yours and the colors on the stars look fine so far.

I do own a few refractors (WO ZS81, Takahashi FC76 and WO RedCat51). Both the ZS81 and FC76 are doublets and their color correction is superb. You might purchase a triplet but then the quality has to be perfect and then you need a flattener/reducer which needs to be well adapted to not screw with the triplet quality.

Long story short: stick with the scope, don't pixel peep and enjoy the time capturing data and processing it. Clear nights are to precious to be wasted (at least for my location).

CS and enjoy your scope,
Björn
Piers Palmer avatar
And then you’ll run into tilt, or collimation issues lol !

I’ve already got an 8” newt for that. Shudder!
Piers Palmer avatar
Long story short: stick with the scope, don't pixel peep and enjoy the time capturing data and processing it. Clear nights are to precious to be wasted (at least for my location).

CS and enjoy your scope,
Björn

That’s very true, although looking where you are, I’d probably sell a kidney to have your weather!  This is part of the dilemma, of course, as if nights are rare, it’s going to make the most of them. I’m definitely not a pixel peeper, but I do like to make use of a clear night. It’s reassuring to know I probably already am!
Your scope seems to perform well. To make a better judgement, you should take single exposures of bright stars (like Vega) without special filters (use L-only if your camera doesn't block IR) and see if you notice significant color.

Great idea! Thanks.
John Hayes avatar
The important thing to understand about optical design is that there are a lot of things that you need  to control to produce a high quality image.  In general, it involves solving simultaneous equations to find a solution and in most cases, there isn't a single "perfect" solution.  In general, optical design codes work to minimize the rms errors of a specific merit function that defines what the designer is trying to control.  And here's where the difference between a doublet and a triplet come in.  The more variables that you have in the optical components, the more things that you can control.  Variables consist of radius of curvature, thickness, refractive index, dispersion, and spacings.   The things that you are trying to control are the focal length along with the on-axis optical aberrations such as spherical aberration and  longitudinal color correction (i.e. change of focal length with color).  In the field, you need to control coma and astigmatism, and lateral color (change in magnification with color) along with (to a lesser extent) distortion.  Field curvature just happens as a result of optical power…and you you need some field optics further downstream to fix that problem.  The reason that you have air-spaced doublets is that you get additional variable to work with with respect to a cemented doublet.  That's why there are virtually no high-end cemented refractor objectives.  With a doublet, you are generally only able to achieve near perfect color correction at two wavelengths.  With an air-spaced triplet, you can get nearly perfect correct at three wavelengths–and have more variable to work with to control field aberrations.  A triplet (or more) also allows correcting all this stuff at faster optical speeds.  The downside is that the more elements you have, the more it's going to cost to make the components, which is why high-speed, high quality refractor objectives can be so expensive.  On the other hand, slower, less expensive doublets can produce very nice results–as you've discovered with your scope.

John
Piers Palmer avatar
John Hayes:
On the other hand, slower, less expensive doublets can produce very nice results--as you've discovered with your scope.


That's an interesting point - my Vixen scope and its dedicated reducer/flattener came to around the same price as a PHQ80 + reducer. But maybe the results aren't too far off either!
enta avatar
As long as you're satisfied with the results I wouldn't look into a triplet.
Your pic looks pretty good, nice round stars, the stars are a little green to me which can be easily battled with scnr.

I have a doublet as well and other than a little more post work I don't see it perform worse than some triplets.
There are even Takahashi doublets, can't be so bad.

If you want to go triplet you can with a completely new type of scope.
I went from the 81 doublet to a 127.

I like your image and I think you'd be disappointed going to a gt, the difference might be far less noticeable than you'd expect.
Piers Palmer avatar
If you want to go triplet you can with a completely new type of scope.
I went from the 81 doublet to a 127.


Yes, I keep looking at refractors in that sort of range when something goes wrong with the collimation of my 8" newtonian. However, Vixen do a nice 115mm version of my scope and I already have the reducer/flattener....

There's no perfect scope is there!
enta avatar
Piers Palmer:
There's no perfect scope is there!

Never will be, but there are a few coming close if you got the necessary coins.
I went with the (in my opinion) good price/value option.
Explore scientific seems to have a sub par quality control, but if you're lucky and get a good one I think it's a nice purchase.

The vixen looks nice and if you got the reducer/flattener already it could be a nice addition.
Just note (might be only true for me), but with a bigger scope comes much more struggle.
Tim Hawkes avatar
Just a personal point of view – If I  owned what appears to be a very nice 3 inch refractor already then I wouldn't be looking for another marginally larger  refractor  as a second telescope because it is just not likely to perform differently enough except at the margins.  A 6 inch reflector plus coma corrector  ?  -  not that physically huge, far cheaper, apochromatic  and easy to collimate at F > 4.5 or so.

Tim
Piers Palmer avatar
I'm not sure my climate warrants one telescope, let alone more, but normally my 8" Newt behaves itself and the results are decent, so I know if I did ever try and replicate the focal length with a refractor it would be a mistake, but I'm good at making mistakes!
Tim Hawkes avatar
Piers Palmer:
'm not sure my climate warrants one telescope, let alone more,


now there is a statement that I cannot disagree with!  :-)
Deepan Vishal avatar
In my opinion, stars

here my doublet vs triplet of same target.

doublet-
https://www.astrobin.com/uo58t1/B/

triplet-
https://www.astrobin.com/d3futo/


The only difference in the image is stars. I added stars from my triplet to the image captured with doublet telescope. 

The trade off for the cost/weight and stars quality is something that you’ll have to decide based on your preferences and taste. 

i like my stars tight, round and without CA. So I went with triplet

hope it helps.

thanks,
deepan
Mark  Mruczek avatar
I know what you are talking about. I too suffer this same dreadful disease! I have a William Optics Zenithstar 81mm doublet FPL53 glass. I really love this scope and have been trying to decide to "Upgrade" if you will to a triplet.  I have read so many different articles and post and have received much of what you have here, all good advice, details and opinions. 

For me, I came across a YouTube video from Niko Carver titled "4 Telescopes Tested: Doublet vs. Triplet vs. Quadruplet vs Quintuplet" where he tested FOUR popular astrophotography telescopes scopes to see how the number of glass elements affects deep sky photos! If you haven't seen it, I highly suggest it. For me I decided to keep my doublet and build a different system with a 6" SCT and saved a bunch of money.

https://youtu.be/WDLUv1GY3AQ
Piers Palmer avatar
Deepan Vishal:
In my opinion, stars

here my doublet vs triplet of same target.

doublet-
https://www.astrobin.com/uo58t1/B/

triplet-
https://www.astrobin.com/d3futo/


The only difference in the image is stars. I added stars from my triplet to the image captured with doublet telescope. 

The trade off for the cost/weight and stars quality is something that you’ll have to decide based on your preferences and taste. 

i like my stars tight, round and without CA. So I went with triplet

hope it helps.

thanks,
deepan


That's interesting - thanks. I can see the difference, although the doublet is fine....I mean really good. The triplet does look better, but then if I factor in the bigger scope with longer integration time and a lot more cost....I don't think it would make me upgrade, but it might make me consider a triplet if I ever needed to replace my current scope. 

Both lovely images!