Beginner camera for astrophotography - Forums

Topic starter

Jul 17, 2023

Hi there!
I am very new to astrophotography and currently taking pictures with my mobile phone through my 10'' 1200mm dobsonian telescope and am looking to buy a better camera because I want to further explore astrophotography. Because I don't have a huge budget and want to save some money for an eq mount I am looking to buy a dslr camera. Therefore I have a some questions to buy a suited camera. I already looked at a few suggestions and found that Nikon has just a little bit better sensors when taking pictures with different ISO settings. I found that out on "Photons to photos". I also saw some people recommend the Nikon d5300 and Nikon d5600.
So my question is, if an of these cameras are good for taking beginner level astrophotography pictures.
Thanks in advance!

Oscar

Jul 17, 2023 · Edited: Jul 17, 2023

If you are getting a DSLR camera just for astrphtgrphy, don't make my (expensive) mistake and get a stock one. Get a modified one.

But if I could go back in the past and change my decision it would not be a modified camera, it would be one of these: https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/product-category/cameras/dso-cameras/ They are called dedicated astronomy cameras, and they are well worth the price.

I recommend you learn more about all of this before jumping to buy a camera.

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

Jul 17, 2023

Hi there!
I am very new to astrophotography and currently taking pictures with my mobile phone through my 10'' 1200mm dobsonian telescope and am looking to buy a better camera because I want to further explore astrophotography. Because I don't have a huge budget and want to save some money for an eq mount I am looking to buy a dslr camera. Therefore I have a some questions to buy a suited camera. I already looked at a few suggestions and found that Nikon has just a little bit better sensors when taking pictures with different ISO settings. I found that out on "Photons to photos". I also saw some people recommend the Nikon d5300 and Nikon d5600.
So my question is, if an of these cameras are good for taking beginner level astrophotography pictures.
Thanks in advance!

A D5300 will serve you well for anything astro-related. You won't need the cutting edge version (D5600). The only thing I can suggest is get a used one and if possible an astro-modded one. It won't let you down. Resist the expensive siren calls for dedicated astro camera. There is always time for that once you get up and running in the business of AP.

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wsg

Jul 17, 2023 · Edited: Jul 17, 2023

I started off in astrophotography with a small telescope and a DSLR, which was a natural step for me because I already owned a DSLR camera. I quickly learned about the differences and advantages of dedicated astro cameras and bought one.

I have rarely if ever used one of my DSLR cameras for astro since.

If you are thinking about buying a Nikon or any other standard camera for other uses, then it is probably the right move for you to make to buy one and use it for astro but modding would not be a recommendation.

If you just want a Nikon for astro, I recommend going straight to a dedicated astro camera because you will eventually buy one anyway if you stay in the hobby and you will save money by not purchasing the DSLR.

scott

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Oscar

Jul 17, 2023 · Edited: Jul 17, 2023

I recommend going straight to a dedicated astro camera because you will eventually buy one anyway if you stay in the hobby and save money by not purchasing the DSLR.

scott

That's what I was saying. If I could go back and change my decision it would be an astro camera. It will actually save money and time to go that route.

AwesomeAstro

Jul 18, 2023

Check out my recent 50% of images for what you can do with an unmodified D5300; it's an excellent camera, and I just bought a second one (well, the D5200, but it's almost identical) used online for $200 including a lens in like-new condition, for piggyback imaging with a telephoto lens. It's the cheapest performer you'll find for the quality. I used to use the d3300 but it wasn't compatible with SDK suites like SGPro, etc.

IMO that money is better allocated to a nice EQ mount than a bigger/better camera, but your desired imaging targets play a role in this decision.

Ed Dixon

Jul 18, 2023 · Edited: Jul 18, 2023

I have had at least half a dozen different Nikon DSLR models, all did well at astro things. I had a D5600 for some time and it did great. I would not get a modified version of any of them. Today I have a D780 and a Zfx, however virtually all my astro images are with dedicated astro cameras.

If the hobby takes, you will quickly find you need an automated GOTO EQ mount. That will be followed by one or more astro cameras. However you can get pretty good images with a basic Nikon and a rotator mount like an iOptron Sky Guider Pro.

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Arun H

Jul 18, 2023

I would have to agree with those who advocate for just regular DSLRs. They will do fine at galaxies and star clusters. They will even do better than expected with some brighter nebulae. See below taken with a stock DSLR when I was first starting out:

https://astrob.in/383940/

https://astrob.in/382627/

You can always buy as astro camera if the hobby sticks. And if it doesn't, well, you can use the DSLR for family vacations!

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Lukas Bauer

Topic starter

Jul 19, 2023

Thank you for all the responses!
I am currently tending towoards buying a unmodified dslr camera. This is because I have a pretty large Telescope (1200mm) and because I don't have a tracker yet I think that I will get a lot of star trailing. The next problem is that I can only photograph rather small objects (because of large focal lenght) which can be a little bit of a problem because I am completely new. Because of these two problems combined (short exposure lenght because of no tracker, large focal lenght) I think I will be better off buying a dslr and additionally also buying a tripod and a 200-300mm lens to also be able to get the large nebulae into frame. Does anyone have experience with such large lenses? When buying a used one there is also a chance to get a 105mm lens too. And as far as I know you can get up to 2 - 2.5 seconds of exposure lenght (untrached).

Thanks for all future responses and tips!

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

Jul 19, 2023 · Edited: Jul 19, 2023

Thank you for all the responses!
I am currently tending towoards buying a unmodified dslr camera. This is because I have a pretty large Telescope (1200mm) and because I don't have a tracker yet I think that I will get a lot of star trailing. The next problem is that I can only photograph rather small objects (because of large focal lenght) which can be a little bit of a problem because I am completely new. Because of these two problems combined (short exposure lenght because of no tracker, large focal lenght) I think I will be better off buying a dslr and additionally also buying a tripod and a 200-300mm lens to also be able to get the large nebulae into frame. Does anyone have experience with such large lenses? When buying a used one there is also a chance to get a 105mm lens too. And as far as I know you can get up to 2 - 2.5 seconds of exposure lenght (untrached).

Thanks for all future responses and tips!

I'm afraid you need to lower your expectations. Let's say a 105mm FL lens would yield the following table of expected trailing (which you need to compare against the chosen DSLR's pixel size):

(t is the exposure time)

For a static tripod/lens combination you would need thinking about wide lens, 50mm or below.

Tareq Abdulla

Jul 19, 2023

I want to see how that unmodified DSLR or mirrorless justified under Bortle 8/9 and hot weather by night or humid.

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

Jul 19, 2023

Maybe the OP is lucky and lives under Bortle 1 skies…

Jon Auel

Jul 19, 2023

Arun H:
I would have to agree with those who advocate for just regular DSLRs. They will do fine at galaxies and star clusters. They will even do better than expected with some brighter nebulae. See below taken with a stock DSLR when I was first starting out:

https://astrob.in/383940/

https://astrob.in/382627/

You can always buy as astro camera if the hobby sticks. And if it doesn't, well, you can use the DSLR for family vacations!

I completely agree. For me at least, a wasn’t sure if the hobby would stick (it has btw lol).

I started with my old Nikon D3200 which I already owned. I now have a D5600, a carbon fiber tripod, a Sky Watcher Star Adventurer 2i star tracker, a Sigma 50-150mm F2.8 EX APO DC OS HSM lense for wide field deep sky, and alternatively an AstroTech AT60ED small refractor which is F6 and 360mm. The telescope (and associated field flattener were new), but all the rest I purchased used in like new condition on MPB.com. There are plenty of sites with excellent used gear.

Best case, you use these to get started with the hobby and then can upgrade to a dedicated Astro camera if you are enjoying the hobby. Worst case, you can still use the DSLR and lense for nature photography and vacations!

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Arun H

Jul 19, 2023

Tareq Abdulla:
I want to see how that unmodified DSLR or mirrorless justified under Bortle 8/9 and hot weather by night or humid.

The only difference between an unmodded and modded DSLR is the sensitivity to H-alpha. Sensitivity to temperature will be identical. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that unmodded DSLRs should be used for all astrophotography. I think all of us that recommended unmodded DSLRs made the point that they'll perform fine on star clusters and galaxies, in comparison to modded ones, which is perfectly true. They'll do ok for brighter nebulae from Bortle 4 sites too as shown in my examples.

The recommendation is for someone starting out in astrophotography who has zero experience and does not even own a tracker. We have no idea if, after realizing the complexity involved, they will stick with the hobby or not. So we can recommend to them specialized equipment in some pursuit of perfection or we can recommend to them to use readily available equipment that can also be used for other purposes if they don't like the hobby.

For reference, here is an M-81/82 pic taken from a Bortle 6 site with an unmodded camera and LP filter:

https://www.astrobin.com/full/398058/0/

Obviously there are much better pics of these out there, but I'd like to think someone starting out would be happy if they could get pics like this. This hobby can be a big money sink, so it is best, when starting out, to use equipment that is dual use.

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Lukas Bauer

Topic starter

Jul 19, 2023 · Edited: Jul 19, 2023

@Arun H

First of all, thanks for your advice!

I completely agree, that I would be more than happy with a picture like yours. I live under a bortle 4 sky (also able to drive about 30 min to bortle 3) and absolutely love my experiences with visual astronomy so far and want to try out astrophotography because my uncle also has a big telescope and a tracker and everything (he is a lot older than me and retired) and I only gained my interest through him and as time went on I always wanted the same telescope as him. But now I just want to challange my self a little bit more and try out astrophotography. He said that I should by a monochrome dedicated astro camera because he thinks that you don't necessarily need colours because you see more details.
I on the other hand think that colours are the whole beaty of astrophotography and because I didn't want to spend 1000 or more (because I want to wait till I can by a tracker before astro camera; and also because I don't need my laptop directly next to my telescope) on a astro camera and also because I could use a dslr with a lens too (for wide shots), I think that I'm probably going to my a dslr (Nikon d5300).

Cosmetatos

Jul 19, 2023 · Edited: Jul 19, 2023

I would suggest you get a planetary astro camera (like ZWO 585 for 399$ or 533 if you can increase your budget)

It has a decent size sensor (11.2 x 6.3mm) and good response to red.

The field of view will be smaller than APS-C DSLR (a bit less than half wide - 11.2mm vs 25mm for DSLR), but you gain the following very important benefits:

1. You can take great images of the planets
2. You can take great pictures of galaxies using livestacking in Sharpcap. You livestack 1 or 2 second images, sharpcap can collect thousands, and you end up getting deep sky images without worrying too much about guiding as the livestack will align any errors and ignore any trailing stars.
3. It is great for nebulae as well as you get the Ha response that you cannot get with stock DSLR. Field of view is your only downside vs DSLR
4. You get acquainted with the concept of NINA, Sharpcap and PC-centred astrophotography.
5. While DSLRs can work with NINA and sharpcap, they have some limitations (e.g. livestacking 1second exposures with DSLR is not practical…), whereas dedicated astro cameras have seamless integration.
6. You will keep the planetary camera for planet shooting or as a guidecamera when you upgrade.
7. As you were going for DSLR, you will not miss the fact that the 585 has no cooling. It does not make a big difference anyway when you are a beginner.
8. Livestacking is a joy when you are a beginner and are exploring the cosmos. Pointing to a galaxy or nebula and start seeing colors within a few seconds of livestacking is great. DSLR does not give you the same amount of joy

A young friend of mine started in astrophotography, and the 585 has been the perfect addition to his gear.

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Lukas Bauer

Topic starter

Jul 19, 2023

Cosmetatos:
I would suggest you get a planetary astro camera (like ZWO 585 for 399$ or 533 if you can increase your budget)

It has a decent size sensor (11.2 x 6.3mm) and good response to red.

The field of view will be smaller than APS-C DSLR (a bit less than half wide - 11.2mm vs 25mm for DSLR), but you gain the following very important benefits:

1. You can take great images of the planets
2. You can take great pictures of galaxies using livestacking in Sharpcap. You livestack 1 or 2 second images, sharpcap can collect thousands, and you end up getting deep sky images without worrying too much about guiding as the livestack will align any errors and ignore any trailing stars.
3. It is great for nebulae as well as you get the Ha response that you cannot get with stock DSLR. Field of view is your only downside vs DSLR
4. You get acquainted with the concept of NINA, Sharpcap and PC-centred astrophotography.
5. While DSLRs can work with NINA and sharpcap, they have some limitations (e.g. livestacking 1second exposures with DSLR is not practical...), whereas dedicated astro cameras have seamless integration.
6. You will keep the planetary camera for planet shooting or as a guidecamera when you upgrade.
7. As you were going for DSLR, you will not miss the fact that the 585 has no cooling. It does not make a big difference anyway when you are a beginner.
8. Livestacking is a joy when you are a beginner and are exploring the cosmos. Pointing to a galaxy or nebula and start seeing colors within a few seconds of livestacking is great. DSLR does not give you the same amount of joy

A young friend of mine started in astrophotography, and the 585 has been the perfect addition to his gear.

Thanks for your suggestion! I have a few questions:

How does that work with calibration frames?
You said that it ignores star trailing. That's probably because it takes "Videos" with 47 fps, correct?
Isn't the picture pretty blurred, because of only 8 MP?
Is the software for controlling and live stacking free?
Is there a limit for how long I can take pictures for, because it has no cooling, so it heats up creates thermal noise?
You said that you can see colour within a few seconds, but does it need to be processed, because what I've seen before post processing the image there is pretty much no colour.

Thanks for your answers!

Cosmetatos

Jul 19, 2023

How does that work with calibration frames?
You said that it ignores star trailing. That's probably because it takes "Videos" with 47 fps, correct?
Isn't the picture pretty blurred, because of only 8 MP?
Is the software for controlling and live stacking free?
Is there a limit for how long I can take pictures for, because it has no cooling, so it heats up creates thermal noise?
You said that you can see colour within a few seconds, but does it need to be processed, because what I've seen before post processing the image there is pretty much no colour.

Calibration frames work as with any other camera. You can take your darks and flats, and Sharpcap will automatically correct each light frame in the livestacking mode.

By "ignoring star trailing" I mean that when you use live stacking in sharpcap, with short exposures (eg a few seconds), the software aligns each next exposure on top of the previous one. So whereas you could have star trailing in a 60second exposure, your thirty 2second exposures are perfectly aligned on top of each other in livestacking mode without you needing to do anything. You don't even need a guidescope (although it works better with a guide scope as your frame of reference is stable)

The 47fps would work in video mode on planetary photography. In livestacking for deepsky, you would take consecutive exposures of a few seconds each. If you can guide very well you can do longer, but not really needed.

Blurred : no, it is not any more blurred than DSLR, as the pixel scale is similar. The overall image is smaller though. This means that if you view full screen, the 585 will be at 50% or 100% scale, whereas your DSLR would be at 16%-25%. So effectively when you are viewing full screen, you have zoomed more with a 585 (hence your blurred image comment).

Limit. Not really, you are taking short exposures, so the noise is low anyway. It is well corrected with your darks.

Color: color is visible very quickly in nebulae such as swan, lagoon, trifid, ring, dumbell - within a few seconds. It takes a bit more in fainter ones like crab, veil etc. It takes a very long time for galaxies.

Software. Sharpcap is free with a few restrictions, and a just 10euros or so a year for full usage. NINA is completely free, but has no livestacking ability. The tenner for sharpcap is worth it in my opinion.

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Oscar

Jul 19, 2023 · Edited: Jul 19, 2023

I recommend you watch all of these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xeq-0c_eM8&list=PLDesYsLqfxSEjJlo0v94vj2JOABYOswoX

Lukas Bauer

Topic starter

Jul 19, 2023

Cosmetatos:
How does that work with calibration frames?
You said that it ignores star trailing. That's probably because it takes "Videos" with 47 fps, correct?
Isn't the picture pretty blurred, because of only 8 MP?
Is the software for controlling and live stacking free?
Is there a limit for how long I can take pictures for, because it has no cooling, so it heats up creates thermal noise?
You said that you can see colour within a few seconds, but does it need to be processed, because what I've seen before post processing the image there is pretty much no colour.

Calibration frames work as with any other camera. You can take your darks and flats, and Sharpcap will automatically correct each light frame in the livestacking mode.

By "ignoring star trailing" I mean that when you use live stacking in sharpcap, with short exposures (eg a few seconds), the software aligns each next exposure on top of the previous one. So whereas you could have star trailing in a 60second exposure, your thirty 2second exposures are perfectly aligned on top of each other in livestacking mode without you needing to do anything. You don't even need a guidescope (although it works better with a guide scope as your frame of reference is stable)

The 47fps would work in video mode on planetary photography. In livestacking for deepsky, you would take consecutive exposures of a few seconds each. If you can guide very well you can do longer, but not really needed.

Blurred : no, it is not any more blurred than DSLR, as the pixel scale is similar. The overall image is smaller though. This means that if you view full screen, the 585 will be at 50% or 100% scale, whereas your DSLR would be at 16%-25%. So effectively when you are viewing full screen, you have zoomed more with a 585 (hence your blurred image comment).

Limit. Not really, you are taking short exposures, so the noise is low anyway. It is well corrected with your darks.

Color: color is visible very quickly in nebulae such as swan, lagoon, trifid, ring, dumbell - within a few seconds. It takes a bit more in fainter ones like crab, veil etc. It takes a very long time for galaxies.

Software. Sharpcap is free with a few restrictions, and a just 10euros or so a year for full usage. NINA is completely free, but has no livestacking ability. The tenner for sharpcap is worth it in my opinion.

Thanks for helping me out!
I will definitely consider these points in my decision

Well Written Respectful

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

Jul 19, 2023

If you're thinking of chasing down already small targets in a small sensor on an untracking mount with a lens you're in for a lot of frustration. Given that the pixel size is even smaller than most DSLR your time for untracked exposure is even less than for, say a D5300. And if you're going to go for a tracking setup one day down the line that money is just wasted money. The DSLR will still serve some purposes for both AP and non AP endeavours.

dkamen

Jul 19, 2023

I cannot agree more emphatically with Andrea.

A DSLR includes a full computer that is dedicated to photography. You do not need a second computer to focus, specify exposure settings, set up sequence and persist the captured images. You do not need to connect things to other things and worry about powering all them things.

You can capture workable (or at least interesting) material even with nothing else but the DSLR and the stock lens. But a DSLR and a star tracker are an ubeatable combination for simplicity in terms of setup, operation and associated post processing workflow. And you get to learn first principles which are essential with any gear. Anything else practically puts infinitely more emphasis on the DIY dimension of the hobby to construct a homemade version of exactly that combo, in order to do something better. Usually better at imaging smaller and fainter stuff, something of very little use to a beginner.

I do not think make and model matter that much, if you stay away from the few cameras that are known to be unsuitable for astrophotography (which you do based on the ones you mention).

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Cosmetatos

Jul 19, 2023

Thanks for helping me out!
I will definitely consider these points in my decision

does your dobsonian have any tracking? Without tracking, I think neither DSLR or 585 can be of any use. Your focal length is too high.
So if you want to kick off astrophotography on a small budget, then forget for a bit the 10' telescope, and use a DSLR on a tripod or simple tracking mount.

Concise

Lukas Bauer

Topic starter

Jul 19, 2023 · Edited: Jul 19, 2023

Cosmetatos:
Thanks for helping me out!
I will definitely consider these points in my decision

does your dobsonian have any tracking? Without tracking, I think neither DSLR or 585 can be of any use. Your focal length is too high.
So if you want to kick off astrophotography on a small budget, then forget for a bit the 10' telescope, and use a DSLR on a tripod or simple tracking mount.

No it does not, that's why I am thinking to buy a dslr instead of an astro camera, so that I can take pictures with a 18-105mm or 55-200mm lens and after some time I can try it on the dobsonian. But the main focus of my thought process is to take pictures with a lens on a tripod, because like you said my focal lenght is too high. For the first couple of months I am probably also going to shoot without a tracker, but I'm probably going to buy a rather simple one. I am probably going to buy a go-to mount for my dobsonian in a few years if the hobby sticks but for now I just want to try and take nice pictures with a dslr and a tripod. That's why I probably won't buy a astro camera.

Tareq Abdulla

Jul 19, 2023

Let's go to the basics please, answer:

1. What is your mean or actual or possible budget? I mean the budget you can save and get wait and get it, not a budget that you have now in your hand and running like a baby to buy whatever you can afford and later you know it wasn't the right one or worse, you will buy more or other things later so day after day what you bought will be out of use, once you dive into astrophotography i feel you will forget about photography anyway, i did, but i didn't regret it because i bought so so many expensive photography gear in the past before i know about astrophotography, and i didn't use them when i started anyway, i was lucky to afford astro gear.

2. What is your targets you want to image? You should mention so you know what to buy, some said planets and others say DSO, even with DSO you identify which object is more interest for you, nebulae or galaxies or clusters or PNs or all of them, it is not ideal you use planetary camera for DSO or DSO camera for planets although it can be done, but they made this and that for a purpose, if one camera do all that and more then we won't waste money to buy multiple cameras, in all cases in DSO if you want to do nice imaging you will need a guiding camera next to imaging camera, so you will end up with more than 1 camera anyway, i started with a planetary guiding camera to warm up and not very long after i already bought a cooled mono camera and never looked back and very happy.

I have on mono non cooled planetary camera for sale, but due to far away distances i don't think i will sell it overseas, not to someone can't afford good cameras with good money, i won't lose value to my camera as well, but the camera is also came with a small wide field lens, you can do Milkyway with it, and with cheap small filters you can practice about planetary and DSO together, sure that tracking is very important, but if you use a lens like 35mm-80mm and short exposures then you can at least get something to begin with, you still can use this camera with your dob and use manual tracking by your hands, i saw many did image ISS with manual tracking by themselves with amazing results, planets is even easier because it is smaller and slow moving than ISS, but you need to have magnified size of planets which will make things difficult without better tracking.

Bottom the line, i am not against DSLR, i still have them and use them very rare until one day i return back to photography, but know this, once i touched dedicated astro gear i felt regret or wrong to use non astro gear really, it is like using an economic or good affordable luxury car into F1 racing, you can drive the car and race, but it will never do better any racing cars unless that racing cars are damaged or you race in wrong field like in a desert, then all will be almost same, so don't try to push and force that DSLR if you get it to do mind blowing or amazing results, you will be happy at first, but later when you grow up then you will remember this discussion when people trying to tell you go with tracking and mono camera, i can recommend you to go with cheap color cooled camera and you still can do a lot, but i don't know how cheap is cheap you can afford anyway.

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