Imaging Time -- OSC filters vs. Sky Quality

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Phil Creed avatar
I currently use an L-Enhance filter from a sky on the darker end of a Bortle 6 (~19.4 SQM); Bortle 5 is just a mile or so away.  My most used local sites are in the 20.7 - 21.3 range.

If I recall correctly, requisite imaging time is proportional to 2.512^(delta SQM).  So if I image from, say, Warren Rupp Observatory (~20.7 SQM on the 2020 Light Pollution Map), the 1.3-mag difference in SQM means 1 hr at WRO ~ 3.3 hrs at home.

This recent image of the Leo Triplet required 3.3 hours under a dark sky. :

https://www.astrobin.com/opmn2j/

 It's depressing knowing I could've gotten this in just an hour at WRO.  But WRO is 1hr 15min away--not a great worknight option unless it's winter and the skies are totally dark by 7 p.m.

So OSC duo-band filters is something akin to an "equalizer".  I use an L-Enhance filter that has a 24nm O-III + H-Beta and 10nm H-alpha bandpass.  I need MUCH longer imaging times to get the same degree of background exposure.  I never kept track of the amount, but suffice to say it's easily several times more.  From memory, I want to say 4-5X longer  (If anyone actually has this exact data for the L-Enhance, please let me know...)

Anyhow, if it's ~4X longer, it would stand to reason it's the equivalent of imaging from a sky of ~21 SQM, which is really good.

So a few questions come to mind.

1.  I'm thinking of upgrading my dual-band filter.  Part of me is thinking the IDAS NBZ because of the lack of haloes, another is thinking the Askar Color Magic 6nm or the Antlia ALP-T 5nm.  How much of an improvement / darkening of the background sky would these filters accomplish vs. my L-Enhance?  And is it really worthwhile for, say, an L-Ultimate (3nm)?

2.  I've thought up til now that galaxy imaging boils down to a hard choice between a trip to a dark sky or a long integration.  But I've heard good things about the Antlia Triband Ultra RGB filter.  How much of an sky darkening will this filter accomplish, and for those who've done a comparison, how does it compare to, say, an L-Pro?

Clear Skies,
Phil
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Pariah avatar
Nbz is great, around 10nm from memory so suits faster optics too

Askar I don't trust, their specification for the colour magic is incorrect. 

Antlia ALP T rocks. Good for B7 zones. See my gallery for NBZ and ALP T examples
andrea tasselli avatar
Phil Creed:
I currently use an L-Enhance filter from a sky on the darker end of a Bortle 6 (~19.4 SQM); Bortle 5 is just a mile or so away.  My most used local sites are in the 20.7 - 21.3 range.

If I recall correctly, requisite imaging time is proportional to 2.512^(delta SQM).  So if I image from, say, Warren Rupp Observatory (~20.7 SQM on the 2020 Light Pollution Map), the 1.3-mag difference in SQM means 1 hr at WRO ~ 3.3 hrs at home.

This recent image of the Leo Triplet required 3.3 hours under a dark sky. :

https://www.astrobin.com/opmn2j/

 It's depressing knowing I could've gotten this in just an hour at WRO.  But WRO is 1hr 15min away--not a great worknight option unless it's winter and the skies are totally dark by 7 p.m.

So OSC duo-band filters is something akin to an "equalizer".  I use an L-Enhance filter that has a 24nm O-III + H-Beta and 10nm H-alpha bandpass.  I need MUCH longer imaging times to get the same degree of background exposure.  I never kept track of the amount, but suffice to say it's easily several times more.  From memory, I want to say 4-5X longer  (If anyone actually has this exact data for the L-Enhance, please let me know...)

Anyhow, if it's ~4X longer, it would stand to reason it's the equivalent of imaging from a sky of ~21 SQM, which is really good.

So a few questions come to mind.

1.  I'm thinking of upgrading my dual-band filter.  Part of me is thinking the IDAS NBZ because of the lack of haloes, another is thinking the Askar Color Magic 6nm or the Antlia ALP-T 5nm.  How much of an improvement / darkening of the background sky would these filters accomplish vs. my L-Enhance?  And is it really worthwhile for, say, an L-Ultimate (3nm)?

2.  I've thought up til now that galaxy imaging boils down to a hard choice between a trip to a dark sky or a long integration.  But I've heard good things about the Antlia Triband Ultra RGB filter.  How much of an sky darkening will this filter accomplish, and for those who've done a comparison, how does it compare to, say, an L-Pro?

Clear Skies,
Phil

Comparing across the L-Extreme and the L-Enhance (make the usual allowances for the shortening of the bandwidth with the other filters you mention) I'd say it is quite drastic, like a lot darker. I'd imagine therefore the the most expensive one, the Antlia, would be the best in the game. Me, I'd go for the Askar as a middle ground between cost and effectiviness and avoid 3nm filters entirely, too much cut-off with faster optics and you also loose a significant amount of OIII signal.

If you think imaging broadband targets with a narrowband filter is the right choice you'll be disappointed. At most I'd stick with the L-Enhance or switch a to L-Pro. I don't think the Antlia 3-Band is going to be useful for broadband targets.
Phil Creed avatar
Comparing across the L-Extreme and the L-Enhance (make the usual allowances for the shortening of the bandwidth with the other filters you mention) I'd say it is quite drastic, like a lot darker. I'd imagine therefore the the most expensive one, the Antlia, would be the best in the game. Me, I'd go for the Askar as a middle ground between cost and effectiviness and avoid 3nm filters entirely, too much cut-off with faster optics and you also loose a significant amount of OIII signal.

If you think imaging broadband targets with a narrowband filter is the right choice you'll be disappointed. At most I'd stick with the L-Enhance or switch a to L-Pro. I don't think the Antlia 3-Band is going to be useful for broadband targets.
Phil

Andrea,

Well, the idea would be to (1) upgrade my L-Enhance to a tighter dual-band filter, and (2) pick up something like an Antlia Triad RBG filter for more broadband targets (it's 25nm bandpass for blue, green and red).  The Antlia's RGB is more restrictive than the L-Pro, but not as much as the L-Enhance.

The NBZ would be tighter than my L-Enhance and would work with my 135mm Samyang.  The Antlia would be problematic with it, though.  And it sounds like the L-Ultimate is a bit of overkill, at least for my skies.  Right now, I'm shooting ~3 minute subs with my L-Enhance around f/5, and I wouldn't mind 5-minute subs.  I don't want to be taking 10- to 15-minute subs, though, which is another reason the L-Ultimate might not be my best option.

Clear Skies,
Phil
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Phil Creed avatar
Maybe a dumb question, but is the requisite exposure times for dual-band filters have a linear (inverse) relationship with the bandwidth?

Clear Skies,
Phil
Shinpah avatar
When you say "requisite exposure time" do you mean overall integration time or subexposure length?
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Phil Creed avatar
Sub exposure length.

Clear Skies,
Phil
Shinpah avatar
If you go through Robin Glover's CMOS astrophotography video and come to his final section, that's basically the conclusion; in the absence of differing sky conditions the decrease in skyflux requires longer exposures to swamp camera noise. 12nm is 25x, 6nm is 50x, and 3nm 100x longer than luminance (300nm). This might not take into account decreases in noise from LP that might give you a better snr overall.

I don't think it's 100% accurate, but it's not unuseful.

In practice most people go for shorter, more reliable exposures - many people do a 90 second to 5 minute broadband exposure and switch to something like 3 - 15 minutes for narrowband.
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Joe Linington avatar
I used an Optolong UHC for while (48nmx48nm, pretty wide) and the switch to the NBZ was very noticeable. My skies are just a bit darker than yours at 19.6 (almost B6)
Dale Penkala avatar
Phil Creed:
I currently use an L-Enhance filter from a sky on the darker end of a Bortle 6 (~19.4 SQM); Bortle 5 is just a mile or so away.  My most used local sites are in the 20.7 - 21.3 range.

If I recall correctly, requisite imaging time is proportional to 2.512^(delta SQM).  So if I image from, say, Warren Rupp Observatory (~20.7 SQM on the 2020 Light Pollution Map), the 1.3-mag difference in SQM means 1 hr at WRO ~ 3.3 hrs at home.

This recent image of the Leo Triplet required 3.3 hours under a dark sky. :

https://www.astrobin.com/opmn2j/

 It's depressing knowing I could've gotten this in just an hour at WRO.  But WRO is 1hr 15min away--not a great worknight option unless it's winter and the skies are totally dark by 7 p.m.

So OSC duo-band filters is something akin to an "equalizer".  I use an L-Enhance filter that has a 24nm O-III + H-Beta and 10nm H-alpha bandpass.  I need MUCH longer imaging times to get the same degree of background exposure.  I never kept track of the amount, but suffice to say it's easily several times more.  From memory, I want to say 4-5X longer  (If anyone actually has this exact data for the L-Enhance, please let me know...)

Anyhow, if it's ~4X longer, it would stand to reason it's the equivalent of imaging from a sky of ~21 SQM, which is really good.

So a few questions come to mind.

1.  I'm thinking of upgrading my dual-band filter.  Part of me is thinking the IDAS NBZ because of the lack of haloes, another is thinking the Askar Color Magic 6nm or the Antlia ALP-T 5nm.  How much of an improvement / darkening of the background sky would these filters accomplish vs. my L-Enhance?  And is it really worthwhile for, say, an L-Ultimate (3nm)?

2.  I've thought up til now that galaxy imaging boils down to a hard choice between a trip to a dark sky or a long integration.  But I've heard good things about the Antlia Triband Ultra RGB filter.  How much of an sky darkening will this filter accomplish, and for those who've done a comparison, how does it compare to, say, an L-Pro?

Clear Skies,
Phil

Hello Phil,

I have many images taken with both the NBZ and the ALP-T filters on my profile that will give you a good indication of how they work. I also did a comparison between the 2 filters for others that were interested here: https://www.astrobin.com/uz2syz/E/

Phil my personal recommendation is to go with the NBZ filter. Reason being is your only shooting with a 101mm scope. When I went from my NBZ which is 10nm both Ha/OIII to my ALP_T which is 5nm my sub length pretty much doubled and that is even with my 12” f5 newt. 600s subs is pretty much routine for me now with the exception of really bright objects. While both filters are excellent choices I think the NBZ just fits your setup better IMHO.

In the end I’m using my NBZ on my Stellarvue 102 and my ALP-T on my 12” f5 and I’m very happy with the results that I get. Your welcome to look on my profile for examples of both filters: https://www.astrobin.com/users/DalePenkala/

Hope this helps!

Dale
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Phil Creed avatar
Dale,

Interesting results.  Yeah, 10-minute subs at f/5 aren't exactly my thing.  I think the NBZ is the way to go.

I mean, the L-Enhance is fine.  I've imaged even with a 97% moon out.  Not FABULOUS data, but not bad considering the results.  And that's with a 24nm-bandwidth for O-III, which is going to have more moonlight-compromised than H-alpha.

I figure a tighter O-III bandwidth can only help.

Clear Skies,
Phil
Dale Penkala avatar
Phil Creed:
Dale,

Interesting results.  Yeah, 10-minute subs at f/5 aren't exactly my thing.  I think the NBZ is the way to go.

I mean, the L-Enhance is fine.  I've imaged even with a 97% moon out.  Not FABULOUS data, but not bad considering the results.  And that's with a 24nm-bandwidth for O-III, which is going to have more moonlight-compromised than H-alpha.

I figure a tighter O-III bandwidth can only help.

Clear Skies,
Phil

I think you will really like the NBZ Phil. Like I mentioned earlier, they are excellent filters and you really can’t go wrong with either but I just think with your setup the NBZ is a much better fit and I think you will be happy with the added OIII band pass over the L-Enhance. BTW thats what I went from was the L-Enhance right to the NBZ.

Dale
Phil Creed avatar
Dale,

I just took the plunge and ordered the NBZ.  The L-Enhance will find a new home.  It is not a bad filter, and will give someone else a chance to "get on the interstate" under suburban light pollution.  The NBZ just seems like it's enough of a performance boost to be worth the extra marginal cost.

Clear Skies,
Phil
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Dale Penkala avatar
Phil Creed:
Dale,

I just took the plunge and ordered the NBZ.  The L-Enhance will find a new home.  It is not a bad filter, and will give someone else a chance to "get on the interstate" under suburban light pollution.  The NBZ just seems like it's enough of a performance boost to be worth the extra marginal cost.

Clear Skies,
Phil

Congrats Phil! I’m sure you will like the filter. Let us know what you think of it when you get a chance to try it out!

Dale
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