Old models vs. new models

Equipment CMOS Buying Advice
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Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Hey again,

So now with many cameras coming out i keep asking myself, are the old models we have no longer good? Should we keep those old models? Should we only buy new models?

I have 2 models of that new sensor, IMX571, but i also have that 290 mono which is almost new model too, but it has amp glow, does it means that anything not IMX571 or 533 or IMX455 are not good anymore?

I asked about a mono or OSC for IMX571 before, i keep thinking about either a third IMX571 or just use my current 294 mono beside two IMX571, i keep thinking about OSC camera for RGB more than RGB filters with a mono, i know the quality of mono no doubt, but new models of color cameras are also amazing, and with weather always betraying us anytime i can't depend on RGB filters to finish in time, and i saw a good price now for a mono IMX571 but the budget is not available and the offer will go sooner or later.

Do you think there will be a newer sensors or models that will make the current IMXs [455, 571, 533] just normal and not good enough for next ones so those current one will be like not good choices even people swear about them nowadays, same happened with cameras such as ASI1600/QHY163 and 294 color and whatever.
Arun H avatar
Arun H avatar
Tareq Abdulla:
So now with many cameras coming out i keep asking myself, are the old models we have no longer good? Should we keep those old models? Should we only buy new models?


I think camera manufacturers would very much like you to get rid of your old models and upgrade to new ones!
Well Written
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Arun H:
Tareq Abdulla:
So now with many cameras coming out i keep asking myself, are the old models we have no longer good? Should we keep those old models? Should we only buy new models?


I think camera manufacturers would very much like you to get rid of your old models and upgrade to new ones!

And i am not alone there 
Joe Linington avatar
Joe Linington avatar
My pocketbook says I’m keeping my 2x9 year old uncooled mirrorless cameras. They have great sensors and still make fantastic pictures. The cost to replace them with new sensors is out of reach. If my APS-C ever dies I might consider an IMX 571.
Well Written
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Joe Linington:
My pocketbook says I’m keeping my 2x9 year old uncooled mirrorless cameras. They have great sensors and still make fantastic pictures. The cost to replace them with new sensors is out of reach. If my APS-C ever dies I might consider an IMX 571.

I do have DSLRs and one mirrorless cameras for my photography, great ones, but for astro i never use them or very very often, mainly fr the moon, so i was thinking i better stay with dedicated astro cameras, and going for cooled to do DSO, i tried my DSLR and mirrorless for DSO before and i never get anything good, not even compared to worst cooled CMOS cameras results.
Joe Linington avatar
Joe Linington avatar
Tareq Abdulla:
Joe Linington:
My pocketbook says I’m keeping my 2x9 year old uncooled mirrorless cameras. They have great sensors and still make fantastic pictures. The cost to replace them with new sensors is out of reach. If my APS-C ever dies I might consider an IMX 571.

I do have DSLRs and one mirrorless cameras for my photography, great ones, but for astro i never use them or very very often, mainly fr the moon, so i was thinking i better stay with dedicated astro cameras, and going for cooled to do DSO, i tried my DSLR and mirrorless for DSO before and i never get anything good, not even compared to worst cooled CMOS cameras results.

Most of my gallery is uncooled modified Sony mirrorless. I only just upgraded to a mono cooled camera last month. I’m not saying anyone should switch but they can work very well. It likely helps that most of the year the nights are pretty cool where I live and we all know Sony sensors are the best or they wouldn’t be in 90% of astrocameras.
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Joe Linington:
Tareq Abdulla:
Joe Linington:
My pocketbook says I’m keeping my 2x9 year old uncooled mirrorless cameras. They have great sensors and still make fantastic pictures. The cost to replace them with new sensors is out of reach. If my APS-C ever dies I might consider an IMX 571.

I do have DSLRs and one mirrorless cameras for my photography, great ones, but for astro i never use them or very very often, mainly fr the moon, so i was thinking i better stay with dedicated astro cameras, and going for cooled to do DSO, i tried my DSLR and mirrorless for DSO before and i never get anything good, not even compared to worst cooled CMOS cameras results.

Most of my gallery is uncooled modified Sony mirrorless. I only just upgraded to a mono cooled camera last month. I’m not saying anyone should switch but they can work very well. It likely helps that most of the year the nights are pretty cool where I live and we all know Sony sensors are the best or they wouldn’t be in 90% of astrocameras.

I have same camera of yours [Sony A7R], bought it since 2014, so even all those years i didn't upgrade, now we have Sony A7R4 or A7R5, that was my last camera in photography, and i use it nowadays only to snapshots my gear boxes or products i bought.

I started Astro in 2017, and even in that year i bought astro dedicated cameras and i never planned to modify any of my DSLRs even the old models or my mirrorless, and i never regret it, but since that year i didn't buy any another cooled camera until 2020, that is almost 3-4 years, and by then i bought cameras every year until last year if i remember, now this year i didn't buy anything astro yet, so all what is left is like 2 filters and 1 more cooled camera and 2 scopes and one mount then i am back very strong and seriously to imaging, but i want to know the situation of my 294 mono camera, as i have two Panasonic mono cameras and two IMX571 one is OSC and one is mono, so 294M is alone, and if i buy an extra scope to go with two setup using IMX571 then i have to decided either 294M i have or second IMX571 OSC or second IMX571 Mono.
Ed Dixon avatar
Ed Dixon avatar
An old phrase comes to mind:  Better is the enemy of good enough.

Many factors are involved in the picture results we get with gear.  This is the case for both astro things and regular daytime photography.  Weather, skill, $, season, location, age, time are just a few.  Many of these can’t be bought.

Short of something broken or unmaintained…cameras tend to be capable of taking the same level of images year after year.  Astro cameras are no different.  If it was good last year, it can probably still be just as good this and next year.

I bought a ASI2600MC last month.  It has a few advantages over the ASI294MC Pro already had, but still takes a similar level of images. It does save me some time, which is important to me.  

I bought a new Nikon mirrorless model last year.  The resolution and image quality are probably about the same as the D780 I already had.  It is however about ⅓ of the weight, which at age 74…makes a difference to me.

The right answer varies by person…
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Luka Poropat avatar
Luka Poropat avatar
New Sony sensors are great , IMX 571, IMX 533, IMX455, IMX 585, you are not getting and upgrade realistically if a camera you upgrade to has the same sensors , sure the new ex. Player One cameras have an extended Full Well or FPS boost vs. the "older IMX571", but at the end of the day its the same sensors and not worth upgrading. Keep in mind we are currently reaching the peak of CMOS BSI sensors, there is only soo much the next generations can improve, we already have cameras with overally QE of 90+%.. are the future ones have 100% thats only a "minor" upgrade, can a read noise get any lower than what it is, is 0,5e vs 1e a big deal to you. It all depends, we dont have a jump anymore where the "older" CCDs had 10+e of read noise and buying a BSI CMOS was basically a 1000% better. Unfortunately currently the only good reason for upgrading a camera is to buy a bigger sensor with the similar specification that usually comes from the same sheet, such as going from a IMX571 to IMX 455.
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Keith Egger avatar
Keith Egger avatar
I think there’s a tendency in this hobby to chase the technology (as has been pointed out this is great for the camera manufacturers) but I agree with others that older camera don’t become obsolete just because a newer model has come out. I think the problem is that we have so many cloudy nights to dwell on the (sometimes modest) gains of a newer model. I tend to keep my camera for a long time: Atik 383L+ only just sold a couple of years ago after buying in 2008, still use my QHY163M, only new camera in the past few years is the ASI2600MC because I’m doing more OSC imaging in my new location where weather conditions are less frequent and more variable.
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Joe Linington avatar
Joe Linington avatar
Depending on your sensor, the biggest spec to jump between an older generation astro cam and new is the QE. My A7r (IMX094) has a QE around 56% and my A6000 (IMX210AQL (IMX193)) has a QE of 61%. Both have very low noise and are ISO invariant (unlike the newest Sony sensors, no high gain mode). Both were used in Astro cameras of the last generation. The newer IMX571/533/455 have a little less read noise, a little less amp glow, a little more dynamic range and full well depth but the biggest is the jump to 90% QE.
Helpful Insightful
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Ed Dixon:
An old phrase comes to mind:  Better is the enemy of good enough.

Many factors are involved in the picture results we get with gear.  This is the case for both astro things and regular daytime photography.  Weather, skill, $, season, location, age, time are just a few.  Many of these can’t be bought.

Short of something broken or unmaintained…cameras tend to be capable of taking the same level of images year after year.  Astro cameras are no different.  If it was good last year, it can probably still be just as good this and next year.

I bought a ASI2600MC last month.  It has a few advantages over the ASI294MC Pro already had, but still takes a similar level of images. It does save me some time, which is important to me.  

I bought a new Nikon mirrorless model last year.  The resolution and image quality are probably about the same as the D780 I already had.  It is however about ⅓ of the weight, which at age 74…makes a difference to me.

The right answer varies by person…

This is points for beginners, not advanced people, i started in photography with simple affordable gear, and by the time passing i upgraded and saw improvements in each upgrade, doesn't matter how much improvement there are but most important there is improvement, there is no chance that for example my Sony A7R or Canon 1DX is same quality and performance to my first old camera Canon 350D or even Canon 1D II N, no comparison, so i will never upgrade anything not just in astro if there is no improvement, but as you said, if we upgrade to something better, does that mean old models are not good or it was just good by its time and then something better came along?!!!

We also improve our skills by the time, and that doesn't mean that we should stop upgrading gear, if that is so then it is as i always said very pointless those manufacturers to produce new gear every time, if people really don't care about newer and upgrade then they will never produce something new because no one care to upgrade, but the reality is, so many care, very true unfortunately.
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Luka Poropat:
New Sony sensors are great , IMX 571, IMX 533, IMX455, IMX 585, you are not getting and upgrade realistically if a camera you upgrade to has the same sensors , sure the new ex. Player One cameras have an extended Full Well or FPS boost vs. the "older IMX571", but at the end of the day its the same sensors and not worth upgrading. Keep in mind we are currently reaching the peak of CMOS BSI sensors, there is only soo much the next generations can improve, we already have cameras with overally QE of 90+%.. are the future ones have 100% thats only a "minor" upgrade, can a read noise get any lower than what it is, is 0,5e vs 1e a big deal to you. It all depends, we dont have a jump anymore where the "older" CCDs had 10+e of read noise and buying a BSI CMOS was basically a 1000% better. Unfortunately currently the only good reason for upgrading a camera is to buy a bigger sensor with the similar specification that usually comes from the same sheet, such as going from a IMX571 to IMX 455.

That is a fair point really, i started with ASI120MC [USB2.0] and QHY163M, 120MC damaged, QHY163M lasted with me until today, but i bought more cameras and i am happy, i even still keeping old cameras for use with another setup, so i understand what you trying to say, it is just i feel people just keep recommending the newest ones as they are superior to older models, making me questioning about how effective the old models then.
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Keith Egger:
I think there’s a tendency in this hobby to chase the technology (as has been pointed out this is great for the camera manufacturers) but I agree with others that older camera don’t become obsolete just because a newer model has come out. I think the problem is that we have so many cloudy nights to dwell on the (sometimes modest) gains of a newer model. I tend to keep my camera for a long time: Atik 383L+ only just sold a couple of years ago after buying in 2008, still use my QHY163M, only new camera in the past few years is the ASI2600MC because I’m doing more OSC imaging in my new location where weather conditions are less frequent and more variable.

Good to know, thanks for this post.

Actually i am not sad about what i bought so far, by that time when i bought my cameras i didn't see better or newer, and couldn't afford much expensive ones, so i keep what i bought and buy what i can afford, happy to start with a mono cooled cameras which is a dream for many anyway, and now i have several, so lucky to say, and even i can add more, but if i add more it means i am killing the opportunity for my old ones, so now if i buy that third IMX571 sensor, then what i can do with the lonely QHY294M-Pro camera? I bought it so cheap as a brand new, and not planning to sell it as i don't need to, but i ask myself about is it better i use it than buy a third IMX571 camera or just buy additional camera and also use this QHY294, so making it like 4 cameras rather than 3 anyway.
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Joe Linington:
Depending on your sensor, the biggest spec to jump between an older generation astro cam and new is the QE. My A7r (IMX094) has a QE around 56% and my A6000 (IMX210AQL (IMX193)) has a QE of 61%. Both have very low noise and are ISO invariant (unlike the newest Sony sensors, no high gain mode). Both were used in Astro cameras of the last generation. The newer IMX571/533/455 have a little less read noise, a little less amp glow, a little more dynamic range and full well depth but the biggest is the jump to 90% QE.

And that is why i stated clearly that i don't use any of my DSLR or mirrorless cameras for astro at all, i have many astro cameras cooled and non cooled so i stay that way, but what made things more complicated is when i could afford really nice cameras and i still have room to add more, and if i add more it means some of my old ones could be send to death out of use, i mean if i buy the third IMX571, what will i do with QHY294Mono which i will never sell at all?!!!
Tareq Abdulla avatar
Tareq Abdulla avatar
The main reason i asked my question is that i want to buy the old model camera, 294 color version, it is an old model, because i feel like for some not high quality or details i don't need to go with more expensive camera such as IMX57 even if i can afford it, i mean if i buy that 294 color camera then most likely i can go for a better scope, otherwise if i buy IMX571 camera then most likely i will buy either a cheap achromatic scope or even affordable ED doublet one, so i don't know if a better camera with so so scope can be better option that a great scope with so so camera.

I really wish to see results from 294Color under Bortle 8/9 [LED lights] to see if it is worthy or just go with IMX571 and never look back.
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