Alicia Rossiter avatar
I am interested in getting opinions on how often dark frames needs to be updated?. I update my dark library on a regular basis and usually create a new one after 12 uses of any given exposure time/camera. Is this a good practice?. should I do it more often?. I usually stack in PixInsight and get good results but I wander if I am doing this the right way. Thank you in advance for the feedback.
Bruce Donzanti avatar
I might update mine once or twice a year.  I see no need to do it often.  Darks can change over time as it has been demonstrated, but to obsess over doing them often seems counterproductive to me.
Arun H avatar
Alicia Rossiter:
I am interested in getting opinions on how often dark frames needs to be updated?.


About once a year. I recently redid my -10C darks. The purpose of the dark library is to correct for amp glow and compensate for predictable and repeatable pixel response variation.  What darks don't do is reduce noise. So if your lights and flats are being corrected to your satisfaction, there is no need to redo a dark library.
Well Written Helpful Insightful Concise
andrea tasselli avatar
I'm with Arun here. I re-do them about once a year. Sadly I need to cover all the bases and that means 3 sensors between -20 and 0 and at least 1 hour worth for each temperature/sensor combo.
Alicia Rossiter avatar
Thanks all, so…it really does not matter if they have been used 6 times or 20 times?. It seems the deterioration is not associated with frequency of use  but rather with how old they are?.  really? If true, them I clearly have to slow down doing this. Thanks again.
Arun H avatar
Alicia Rossiter:
Thanks all, so...it really does not matter if they have been used 6 times or 20 times?. It seems the deterioration is not associated with frequency of use  but rather with how old they are?.  really? If true, them I clearly have to slow down doing this. Thanks again.

I don't think that's the case at all! But I doubt anyone has done a detailed study on how many hours or minutes of exposure it takes before a dark library needs to be redone. I wouldn't be surprised if both the age of the sensor and number of charge/discharge cycles affect the accuracy of the darks. It may well be possible to use darks for longer than I do, but darks are easy to take and I have enough cloudy weather that it isn't too much trouble to do them at that frequency. Honestly, the only time I saw an issue that I could relate to darks was when I accidentally used a master dark of the wrong temperarture.
Alan Brunelle avatar
Alicia Rossiter:
Thanks all, so...it really does not matter if they have been used 6 times or 20 times?. It seems the deterioration is not associated with frequency of use  but rather with how old they are?.  really? If true, them I clearly have to slow down doing this. Thanks again.

*Doing repeats of a dark library is to compensate for any changes that might be occurring to the camera sensor (or less likely, the electronics) of the camera over time.  For example, while I have not really noticed it, the occasional sensor pixel can go bad.  Maybe becoming a hot (bright) pixel or a dead (black) pixel.  Even something in between.  It is my understanding that these will tend to increase in numbers over time.  I will take a guess that there is also some correlation to the numbers of hours of operation as well.  Others will have much more knowledge about this than I.  In any case the rate of change is pretty slow.  The time that others have mentioned here wait between redoing Dark libraries is probably a safe bet.  My guess is that it can be extended beyond that comfortably and in that, is related to your tolerance of the increase in bad pixels, and other artifacts is acceptable.  Also consider the old libraries as being something that may be worth dating and saving.  As I have been going through my old data, I find that I want to reprocess the stacked images from the subs.  It is best to use Darks from the same "era" as the subs were taken.  Otherwise you increase the chance of actually adding defects to the image.

Libraries are digital data.  There are issues with regard to the integrity of digital data, but that is unrelated to the issues you are referring too in your question.  The handling of digital files by computers has become so faithful, with error checking and correction that it is a non-issue.  In any case, if a digital image file were to degrade, it would likely be "corrupted" and simply would not open.  Your files don't gradually wear out with use.  More likely you should be careful on the media you save your data on too.   And backup data!  But there is not gradual degradation to the files.
Alicia Rossiter avatar
Thanks a lot to all, I see this more clear now with all the useful comments. The need for updating darks is determined by combination of factors and also driven by the changes in the camera sensor over time.  I have noticed that the awful amp glow of my ASI183 sometimes does not disappear completely in some images, I guess that would be a sign that new darks are needed.  I also archive my dark library by date, gain, filter type etc. without that level of organization is impossible to know which one to use.
Helpful Respectful
Jim Raskett avatar
Possibly so. 
My one and only astro camera is a ASI 533 MC-Pro that has no amp glow. It’s been about 1 1/2 years since I’ve updated my dark library ( lazy) and frankly, I really don’t see any difference whatsoever using darks or not. 
Since you are noticing amp glow after calibrating with your darks, maybe create a new set and see if that helps. If it does, and it probably will, then you know that you need to recreate your dark library more often.

Jim
Helpful
Steve Solon avatar
Hi Alicia,
I usually update our Darks library 3-4 times a year, as temperature swings occur between day and night here in New Mexico. The QSI 683 on the big scope tends to show an occasional different dark column with these temp changes, and a new set of Darks takes care of that.
Hope this helps a bit.
- - Steve
Well Written Helpful Respectful Concise
Alicia Rossiter avatar
Interesting, I have noticed also some banding when the amp glow does not completely disappears. I think I am getting a better understanding on when to redo darks. Also, cameras like ASI183 really create a problem with the huge amp glow. The ASI2600 is the opposite, zero amp glow and hardly any noise.
Dale Penkala avatar
It’s been my experience that 1-2 times a year for me anyway here in Mid-Michigan USA. Right now I’m at about 8-9 months since I’ve shot my last set of darks and I really have no reason to reshoot them that I can see. I use both the 294 & 071 cameras and the darks seem to calibrate out just fine.
Now Flats are a different story!

Dale
Geoff avatar
Do some investigation. Compare dark masters taken 6 months apart. If they only show minor differences then 6 months apart is probably ok. If they show big differences, then you need to shorten the time between dark library updates.
Concise
Photon_Collector avatar
Alicia Rossiter:
I am interested in getting opinions on how often dark frames needs to be updated?. I update my dark library on a regular basis and usually create a new one after 12 uses of any given exposure time/camera. Is this a good practice?. should I do it more often?. I usually stack in PixInsight and get good results but I wander if I am doing this the right way. Thank you in advance for the feedback.

Can I ask a separate question? How many dark frames do you usually include in a library? do you need a separate library for different temperatures, or are you just meaning for use with a cooled chip (like all photos at -10 C)?
Engaging
Dale Penkala avatar
Alicia Rossiter:
I am interested in getting opinions on how often dark frames needs to be updated?. I update my dark library on a regular basis and usually create a new one after 12 uses of any given exposure time/camera. Is this a good practice?. should I do it more often?. I usually stack in PixInsight and get good results but I wander if I am doing this the right way. Thank you in advance for the feedback.

Can I ask a separate question? How many dark frames do you usually include in a library? do you need a separate library for different temperatures, or are you just meaning for use with a cooled chip (like all photos at -10 C)?

I personally shoot for 15-20 darks at whatever temp I decide to work with. If you shoot with different temperatures through the year yes you should take darks at the same temp you shoot your light frames at.
In my case I shoot year round at -5

Dale
Concise
andrea tasselli avatar
Can I ask a separate question? How many dark frames do you usually include in a library? do you need a separate library for different temperatures, or are you just meaning for use with a cooled chip (like all photos at -10 C)?


Same as Dale above, I shoot 15-20 dark frames for each temperature (-20 C, -10 C, 0 C, 5 C, 10 C) for my cooled cameras.
Well Written Concise
Nick Grundy avatar
I tend to shoot about 20 frames (and try to stick to same temperature throughout the year to keep it simple) Seems like the camera can almost always get to at least -10c, even in summer
Related discussions
The need for REAL signal - Thoughts on true image quality
Having just been getting back into the astrophotography fray lately, after having been largely out of the game for a few years, I thought I'd start a discussion on the need for real signal. I kind of landed here, in 2024, right in the middle of t...
Mar 8, 2024
Both posts discuss astrophotography processing techniques and seek advice on best practices for improving image quality.