Flat panel for the ZWO ASI294MM PRO?

ItsMeAstroWillem Jan DrijfhoutLasse SkovPaoloArun H
82 replies3.7k views
Lasse Skov avatar
Hi.

I'm looking for a flat panel for my ZWO ASI294MM PRO. For narrowband I use cheap LED panel that works fine, but for LRGB it's too bright - even with several layers of t-shirts - because the 294MM "likes" flat frames that are 2-3 seconds long.

So I'm looking for a "real" astro flat panel generator that can be dimmed enough for this purpose.

Does anyone have any recommendations? Or maybe any other methods? Skyflats can be a bit tricky for me.
andrea tasselli avatar
I have the MC version, supposedly the same sensor only with color masking, and I have never bothered with such things. My normal times are 0.1s to 0.5s. admittedly I take sky flats only…
Lasse Skov avatar
Hi Andrea

Thank you for your feedback.

I don't own a MC so I can't speak to that - but as far as I understand it, the MM is a different beast. Looking around in various forums longer flats seems to be the way to go for the MM smile
Arun H avatar
For 294MM, I use a LED panel I bought from Amazon masked with about 8-10 sheets of A3 paper which gives me 4s flats for LRGB for a f/4.6 Newt. I recently measured the uniformity of flats taken using this method and there are substantial gradients though they are uniform and removable using DBE. I’m upgrading to a proper Astro flat panel but even there I suspect I’ll have to modulate with some form of diffuser to get long flats.
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Lasse Skov avatar
Hi Arun

I've been talking to Deep Sky Dad about their flat panel: https://shop.deepskydad.com/product/flat-panel-ft1/
It seems to be a good fit for me so I'll probably go for this one.

Good tip about the sheets of A3 on the LED-panel. I'll try that out.
Arun H avatar
I am not familiar with that one. Whichever one you use, and especially if you are paying hundreds of euros for it, be sure to ask them for uniformity measurements. These are very easy to perform and someone who cannot supply those to you is just selling you a high priced LED tracing pad. Not saying that’s the case here - but you want to make sure you’re getting something good for that kind of money.
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Jesse Priolo avatar
I also use a cheap, very bright LED tracing panel. My solution has been to use a t-shirt, topped with a piece of dark grey transparent acrylic when taking LRGB flats in order to achieve a flat time from 1.25s-3s.
Lasse Skov avatar
Arun H:
I am not familiar with that one. Whichever one you use, and especially if you are paying hundreds of euros for it, be sure to ask them for uniformity measurements. These are very easy to perform and someone who cannot supply those to you is just selling you a high priced LED tracing pad. Not saying that’s the case here - but you want to make sure you’re getting something good for that kind of money.

That's good advice, thanks. Yeah, astro flat panels are super expensive for some reason. Especially the Primalucelab ones. Yikes.
Lasse Skov avatar
Jesse Priolo:
I also use a cheap, very bright LED tracing panel. My solution has been to use a t-shirt, topped with a piece of dark grey transparent acrylic when taking LRGB flats in order to achieve a flat time from 1.25s-3s.

Great tip, Jesse. Thanks!
Brandon Tackett avatar
HI lskov

I have and use both 294 MC and 294 MM for the majority of my imaging. Due to the banding issues known within the sensor, I switch from an amazon LED A3 panel to spike a flat panel 3 years ago. The dimming level of control and low brightness has made a significant difference.  I also use the 294s with my RASA8 set up and utilize 1.2 neutral density sheets (10 to 20 USD on Amazon)  between my flat panel and the OTA to decrease the F ratio from F2 to levels that allow me to take 6 second flats. In my testing, this was the length of flat that normalized the banding and gradients. In my experience, I also found that time equivalent darks (aka dark flats) to the 6 second flat was important to calibrate my flat frames. Here is a picture of the neutral density films and my set from a TAIC Presentation regarding the RASA8.  The top picture was done with 1 or 2 second flats with banding. 


Hope that helps!

-Brandon
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Arun H avatar
I shared this in an earlier thread, but here is a simple method (courtesy of John Upton) to evaluate uniformity of your flat panel:
Flat Frame Evaluation in PixInsight:
  1. Set up telescope and camera as when taking Flat frames.
  2. Shoot 10 Flat frames with similar median brightness at about 30,000 ADU. (Set #1)
  3. Rotate the Flat light source by 90° leaving the camera and telescope in the same position.
  4. Shoot 10 more Flat frames with similar median brightness at about 30,000 ADU. (Set #2)

  5. In PixInsight, integrate Set #1 using Image_Integration as you would for creating a Master Flat.
  6. Name the Set #1 integrated result Flat_00_Deg.
  7. In PixInsight, integrate Set #2 using Image_Integration as you would for creating a Master Flat.
  8. Name the Set #2 integrated result Flat_90_Deg.

  9. Use Pixel_Math to divide one integrated result by the other and normalize it:
  10. Flat_00_Deg / Flat_90_Deg / 2.0
    Be sure to select Create New Image and select the output Sample Format to be 32 bit Floating Point.
  11. Name this new image Flat_Diff.

  12. Run the Flat_Contour_Plot script on the Flat_Diff frame.
  13. Select the script parameters as: 50, 2.5, 15, 50
  14. On the resulting Contour Plot, note the numbers shown at the top (Max) and bottom (Min) along the right side.

  15. Calculate the total non-uniformity in the Flat as:
  16. total_non-uniformity = (Max - Min) / ((Max + Min) / 2)
  17. You can optionally divide this by 2 to get the ± deviation from the mean value.

You are looking for uniformity numbers under 10%, preferably under 5%. The Spike A Flat claims numbers lower than 1%; unfortunately, they are now exiting the astro business so the panel is no longer available new. The Gerd Neuman Aurora flat panel, which is an EL panel, has also been evaluated using this method and is ~1%. I don't know the metrics for other panels.

The general challenge with LED based panels that are edge lit is that you need an engineered light guide, reflector sheet, and good diffusers to achieve uniformity. Simple tracing pads would not bother with this since it is overdesigning for the intended application.
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Jeff Horn avatar
I use a panel by Elumiglow...https://www.ellumiglow.com/electroluminescence/astrophotography/astrophotography-8-circle-el-panel-kit
I tried a panel from Amazon but it had uneven illumination
The panel I bought comes with a battery pack and a tunable amount of brightness
I also got the acrylic panel to diffuse the light.  
Most of my flats are 3s (LRGB), or 5s for narrowband.  
Overall very happy with this product and it didn't break the bank.
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Lasse Skov avatar
Brandon Tackett:
HI lskov

I have and use both 294 MC and 294 MM for the majority of my imaging. Due to the banding issues known within the sensor, I switch from an amazon LED A3 panel to spike a flat panel 3 years ago. The dimming level of control and low brightness has made a significant difference.  I also use the 294s with my RASA8 set up and utilize 1.2 neutral density sheets (10 to 20 USD on Amazon)  between my flat panel and the OTA to decrease the F ratio from F2 to levels that allow me to take 6 second flats. In my testing, this was the length of flat that normalized the banding and gradients. In my experience, I also found that time equivalent darks (aka dark flats) to the 6 second flat was important to calibrate my flat frames. Here is a picture of the neutral density films and my set from a TAIC Presentation regarding the RASA8.  The top picture was done with 1 or 2 second flats with banding. 


Hope that helps!

-Brandon

Absolutely. Thank you Brandon!
Lasse Skov avatar
Jeff Horn:
I use a panel by Elumiglow...https://www.ellumiglow.com/electroluminescence/astrophotography/astrophotography-8-circle-el-panel-kit
I tried a panel from Amazon but it had uneven illumination
The panel I bought comes with a battery pack and a tunable amount of brightness
I also got the acrylic panel to diffuse the light.  
Most of my flats are 3s (LRGB), or 5s for narrowband.  
Overall very happy with this product and it didn't break the bank.

Hi Jeff. Elimiglow seems interesting. I'll look into that. Thanks!
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MeridianSkyAstronomy avatar
The Optec Alnitak flat field panels & flip flat work well with NINA's Flat Wizard
GalacticRAVE avatar
before investing and if it's just b/c of the 3sec rule - check whether this is really a problem. When I asked the owner of the company who designed/sells my flat panel  (how to I get to 3+ sec) (an accomplished astrophotograph, also here on astrobin) with a very similar questions to yours w.r.t. the 294mm, he replied "do you really have a problem or have you read something on the internet?". James Lamb did also a youtube video recently, and found no difference between short and 3sec flats unless you go very short (0.1 or less). Motivated by this, I recently did a similar test - similar results. and if there is no issue then you easily could do more harm by stuffing stuff in the light path than doing good. I also have not found a good writeup demonstrating the 3sec rule. Sure there is a discontinuity at 1sec (b/c the 294 changes the method to clock the exposure time) but other than that … So if someone has a good writeup, happy to be convinced otherwise … Please also note that the 294mm and the 294mc have different sensors (it's not just the bayer matrix), IMX294  for the MC v IMX 492 for the MM - so they are different beasts.

Matthias
Anderl avatar
i am planing to buy a flat panel as well. 

my favorites so far are:

- the 150 pegasus astro flat panel. I like it because it can be powered and controlled through a single usb cable (huge benefit if one hasn't left any 12dc power ports),

- artesky and deep sky dad flip flat panels. I am not sure on the quality but they are cheap and it would be pretty cool to have a flat panel what can open and close your telescope via Nina. the artesky has the benefit of single cable operation but it looks quite flimsy.
Niraj avatar
I don't have MM but have MC instead. I finally stumbled on this acrylic sheet and it's worked fine for me. I also bought cheap LED panels in past but they didn't do much as I liked.

But this sheet is uniform and just needs good white light source to illuminate it. I use LED torch on a stand shining down on sheet.



https://a.co/d/9rim3c4
Lasse Skov avatar
before investing and if it's just b/c of the 3sec rule - check whether this is really a problem. When I asked the owner of the company who designed/sells my flat panel  (how to I get to 3+ sec) (an accomplished astrophotograph, also here on astrobin) with a very similar questions to yours w.r.t. the 294mm, he replied "do you really have a problem or have you read something on the internet?". James Lamb did also a youtube video recently, and found no difference between short and 3sec flats unless you go very short (0.1 or less). Motivated by this, I recently did a similar test - similar results. and if there is no issue then you easily could do more harm by stuffing stuff in the light path than doing good. I also have not found a good writeup demonstrating the 3sec rule. Sure there is a discontinuity at 1sec (b/c the 294 changes the method to clock the exposure time) but other than that ... So if someone has a good writeup, happy to be convinced otherwise ... Please also note that the 294mm and the 294mc have different sensors (it's not just the bayer matrix), IMX294  for the MC v IMX 492 for the MM - so they are different beasts.

Matthias

Thank your detailed reply, Matthias.

It think I'll test shorter exposures again out this weekend after a (hopefully) LRPG-Ha session. I had some troubles with shorter exposures earlier but it might have been caused by other issues.
Lasse Skov avatar
Niraj:
I don't have MM but have MC instead. I finally stumbled on this acrylic sheet and it's worked fine for me. I also bought cheap LED panels in past but they didn't do much as I liked.

But this sheet is uniform and just needs good white light source to illuminate it. I use LED torch on a stand shining down on sheet.



https://a.co/d/9rim3c4

Hi Nirja.

Thank you for the link. May I ask what LED torch you're using?
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Niraj avatar
Niraj:
I don't have MM but have MC instead. I finally stumbled on this acrylic sheet and it's worked fine for me. I also bought cheap LED panels in past but they didn't do much as I liked.

But this sheet is uniform and just needs good white light source to illuminate it. I use LED torch on a stand shining down on sheet.



https://a.co/d/9rim3c4

Hi Nirja.

Thank you for the link. May I ask what LED torch you're using?

it's Niraj btw (sorry to be picky on my name spelling )

I use this LED torch -
https://www.amazon.com/Abom-Multicolor-Rechargeable-Flashlight-White-Red-Green-Blue/dp/B09CGNK9VY

what I do is use a clamp to hold the torch on my dslr camera stand. that stand has mobile phone holder adapter-use the clamp there to hold the torch.
Then turn on the white LED light on the sheet.
depending on intensity (which I can change by changing FL on the torch), I change height and distance of the torch from where I have placed the flat panel.

I wish I had found this combo approach lot sooner when I got my 294mc, it would've saved me some headache.

Now I have 2600MC and it's working fine with that even more..just because sensor is different and there's not an issue of bad gradients being introduced as 294mc does.
Niraj avatar
before investing and if it's just b/c of the 3sec rule - check whether this is really a problem. When I asked the owner of the company who designed/sells my flat panel  (how to I get to 3+ sec) (an accomplished astrophotograph, also here on astrobin) with a very similar questions to yours w.r.t. the 294mm, he replied "do you really have a problem or have you read something on the internet?". James Lamb did also a youtube video recently, and found no difference between short and 3sec flats unless you go very short (0.1 or less). Motivated by this, I recently did a similar test - similar results. and if there is no issue then you easily could do more harm by stuffing stuff in the light path than doing good. I also have not found a good writeup demonstrating the 3sec rule. Sure there is a discontinuity at 1sec (b/c the 294 changes the method to clock the exposure time) but other than that ... So if someone has a good writeup, happy to be convinced otherwise ... Please also note that the 294mm and the 294mc have different sensors (it's not just the bayer matrix), IMX294  for the MC v IMX 492 for the MM - so they are different beasts.

Matthias

I agree with Matthias here- just because someone has mentioned 3-5 seconds rule--doesn't mean it exactly worked for every single person.

It has only worked for some number of people.

Even though I have 294MC (which is diff sensor) - when I did 1-5 sec range flats..it severely made images worse for me. basically I was going down a rabbit hole that took me awhile to get out of.
John Richards avatar
I have both the ASI294C Pro and ASI294MM Pro.  I use an Amazon LED tracing pad for flats for everything but the Red filter on the ASI294MM Pro.  For that, I found that sky flats seem to work best.

John
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apennine104 avatar
Hey everyone, I have the 294MM and flatmaster 150. I got the flatmaster after using an iPad with t-shirt previously. 

I was hoping the Flatmaster would be a good solution. So far I am mixed. Using NINA, you set the brightness on a scale from 20-255. I have only used LRGB filters, but I have to use brightness of ~23 for L, and ~24 for RGB. If I go any brighter, the exposures go less than 5s. This then causes horrible banding in the flats from the Flatmaster LED turning on/off, which I have seen others report.

The Flatmaster seems inconsistent for some reason too. Sometimes NINA wants to do a 7s flat, other times 20s with the same setting on the Flatmaster, so it requires tuning every time.

Overall the flats seem to correct ok, but I am still a beginner so I can’t be 100% sure. I think my next step is to bring back the t-shirt or paper so I can diffuse the Flatmaster and bring up the brightness on it.

If anyone else uses this combo and has advice that would be great! 

-Chris
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Arun H avatar
Since I wrote the post above, I purchased the Aurora flat panel from Gerd Neuman. Evaluating the uniformity using the Upton method above, I get numbers ~1% compared to over 20% with the cheap LED panel and paper. There is a noticeable difference in how well the frames correct too
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