ASI 294 MM and ASI294MC cameras. A good idea to avoid using gains in the range 120-140 ?

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Tim Hawkes avatar
Users of these cameras will be fully aware of the characteristics of these cameras and most, like me, will probably have picked on gain 120 as the optimum place to be  for achieving unity gain while maximising dynamic range  at the minimum cost of read noise.

However from discussions on other fora - one thread on Sharpcap -I have become aware that there may be some peculiarities of IMX294 and related chips that can cause a small proportion of the pixels to fail to reach full saturation with increasing exposure times at lower levels of analogue gain.

ZWO will have implemented their own  fixes for this but I thought that I would investigate this phenomenon  (as shown here)  for my own two cameras that use the 294 and 492 chip. 

My conclusions are that both the ASI294 MM and the ASI294MC  do not suffer from this problem at any gain settings other than at gains between 120 and 140 - but which unfortunately is also the sweet spot  that most of us choose.    As you can see from the graphs (Sharpcap histograms)  there are maybe 0.1% or less of the pixels that do not behave themselves at gain 120 - in the case of the AS1294 MC  these are mainly green pixels (there are twice as many anyway of course)  but also red pixels - which are significantly more afflicted than blue.  These few pixels fail to saturate irrespective of the exposure time.

The next question of course is does  this non linear behaviour in this range of gains actually matter  for any practical purpose?    I had raised it before in the context of Willem's thread - https://www.astrobin.com/forum/c/astrophotography/deep-sky-processing-techniques/gain-settings-for-flats-vs-lights/  on the wisdom or otherwise of matching gain between flats and lights because it seemed potentially relevant if a number of the pixels in a flat were reporting a lower level of saturation than expected at these particualr gain settings.  Also I  do not know what relevance this aberrant behaviour of a subpopulation of the pixels up near saturation might have for the their expected behaviour at lower levels of saturation relevant to lights.

So I am just putting this out there to see if any of you folk have more information on this and what it implies in practice.  At the moment my instincts are pushing me in the direction of avoiding gain range 120-140  for all future imaging with these cameras -- but I don't know if this is justified.

Tim







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andrea tasselli avatar
Don't think I'll ever be bothered by it, I'm not into photometry this much.
Connor Kessler avatar
I'm still a beginner and use both the 294MM/MC Pros and don't think I would have ever noticed this had it not been pointed out.  That said, it may be the very fact I am a beginner that I don't fully understand if or how this is actually affecting my images.  Definitely curious to see if anyone else has better input because if there's info that comes about that could result in me being able to better fine tune my use of the cameras, that would be great.
Arun H avatar
I've been using the 294MM for close on 2 years. All my images are at Gain 120. If this issue has an impact, I don't notice it in my images.
SemiPro avatar
In Bin 2 I can't really see a point in using anything over than gain 120 to maximize dynamic range while limiting noise thanks to the HCG mode.

In Bin 1 there is a case to be made for gain 0 to maximize dynamic range and well depth, if your system can handle the exposure time to limit the extra noise.

Here is what I calculated for an F/2 system:


I wouldn't be concerned a bout a few renegade pixels here or there because you should be dithering and that should solve any problems.

You might want to run your tests at three seconds or more because anything below that I find things get weird with the 294MM.
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Willem Jan Drijfhout avatar
That's an interesting phenomenon, Tim! Besides looking at how many pixels do not saturate, have you ever looked at which ones they are? An inverted flat at 100% illumination would probably show them fairly easily? It would be interesting to see if they form some kind of regular pattern. If these sensors are designed for photographic purposes, they are often baked with Phase Detect Autofocus pixels dotted around the sensor. Obviously the autofocus function is not used in astro cameras, but these pixels can very well show some weird behaviour.
Also have you tested this in Bin 1 mode? Can't think of what effect this would have, but just one variable less in the equation.
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Tim Hawkes avatar
Willem Jan Drijfhout:
That's an interesting phenomenon, Tim! Besides looking at how many pixels do not saturate, have you ever looked at which ones they are? An inverted flat at 100% illumination would probably show them fairly easily? It would be interesting to see if they form some kind of regular pattern. If these sensors are designed for photographic purposes, they are often baked with Phase Detect Autofocus pixels dotted around the sensor. Obviously the autofocus function is not used in astro cameras, but these pixels can very well show some weird behaviour.
Also have you tested this in Bin 1 mode? Can't think of what effect this would have, but just one variable less in the equation.

Thats is what I was hoping to do this afternoon -- as well as do the same subtraction at lower saturation --trouble is it is raining (no light box so was going to use a cloth over sky) - but I will get to it.  An interesting pair would be gain 119 versus gain 120  perhaps

And yes in Bin1 mode.  There the phenomenon occurred only between gain 0 and 15 which sort of fits with low gain being the problem area in that case..






postscript  .  I am not in a position to do flats to properlly compare unsaturated frames but there is a fairly interesting and structured difference between the fully saturated image at gain 120 and that at 119.

Obviously fully saturated flat at gain 200  and at gain 119  produced a difference of zero - because they both were truly saturated

so stats for the difference = 




But not so for full saturated gain 119 minus gain 120  with actually quite a few pixels (39%) showing a difference


 and a difference signal after stretching looking like this..



Tim Hawkes avatar
In Bin 2 I can't really see a point in using anything over than gain 120 to maximize dynamic range while limiting noise thanks to the HCG mode.

In Bin 1 there is a case to be made for gain 0 to maximize dynamic range and well depth, if your system can handle the exposure time to limit the extra noise.

Here is what I calculated for an F/2 system:


I wouldn't be concerned a bout a few renegade pixels here or there because you should be dithering and that should solve any problems.

You might want to run your tests at three seconds or more because anything below that I find things get weird with the 294MM.

I entirely agree with your comment on dithering.  That by itself is really is a major reason why ultimately it might not matter but I would like to get to the bottom of what is going on and hoped that someone with more specialized knowledge on these cameras might jump in with ready answers.  It is possible for example (and it is worth looking at Willem's data on different patterning effects manifesting at different gains 

read down in https://www.astrobin.com/forum/c/astrophotography/deep-sky-processing-techniques/gain-settings-for-flats-vs-lights/
) that the errant pixels are also responsible for patterning.  In that case it might possibly mean that one price of using gain 120 is that patterning effects  make a relatively deeper  imprint than at other gains --- anecdotally I think that I have seen that when I was using a goto Dob for EEA - much less patterning at gain 200 than at 120 -- but pure speculation at the moment.

On the 3 second thing -- I also did the same at ~ 10s and was seeing the exact same thing wrt saturation.  But it was obviously all a bit slower then to try the range of  different conditions.
Arun H avatar
The three second rule with the 294 sensor had to do with the timing circuitry - whether what is used is the circuitry on the chip (for exposures less than 1 s) or from the driver ( for exposures greater than that). It probably has little to with saturation. Short exposures result in excess heat on the chip due to increased use of electronics on it; exposures between 1 and 4s can be inconsistent due to imprecision in the driver. Hence the best thing is to use longer exposures. The below is from John Uptons excellent analysis of the 294MM.

”Most Astro-Camera designs use in-camera timing for short exposures and the PC Device Driver timing for longer exposures. From the plot above, I believe the SOC is being used for all exposures up to 1 second. The sharp slope of the plot for values less than 1 second is most likely due to extra heat generated by on-sensor timer circuitry being active during the exposure. Above one second, the PC running the camera takes over the exposure timing functions. The slight inconsistency of the ADU values between 1 and 2 (or 3) seconds is due, I believe, to inconsistent timing from the device driver. PC systems are generally not good at real time operations. Longer times are more accurate as a percentage of the measured value. That is why things smooth out to a linear slope by the time we get to 4 second and greater exposures.”

Incidentally, the above is the reason why I use > 4 second exposures even on the 2600MC.

In looking at the flats from the 294MM, it is quite obvious that there is significant PRNU on a length scale that is far above what dithering would be able to handle. And that phenonomen is very obviously more than a small number (ie 0.1% ) of pixels.

One other point - at low gains, people have reported banding, i.e., pattern noise, which can be a worse problem. That is the reason to use gains of 120 or higher, where the read noise is low enough that it is very easily overcome with sky fog noise.

 As noted originally, I have done both broad and narrow band imaging at Gain 120, and this saturation issue, if real, has had no noticeable affect.  I've found flats taken at gains even at means of 40,000 ADU to correct lights very well.
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Tim Hawkes avatar
Arun H:
The three second rule with the 294 sensor had t


Thanks I didn't know that.  A lot of useful comments in your post
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