Kostas Papageorgiou avatar
Hi!
Resently i bought the  Astronomik Deep Sky LRGB filters..
I shoot some test shots with my 294mm and the Esprit 100Ed..
I noticed some bright spot in the center of the R integration... it shows in G a litle too..
before i was having the optolong RGB without this issue, but i was havin halos around bright stars....

Is this normal? i think the r filter has a defect...  
240s x 15 per channel in integration bin 1x1 , gain 120, - 15 c. calibration with flats and darks. the flats are about 22500 ADU
thanks

Flat R


Flat g


Flat B


Integration R without flats:


with flats :

overcorrection? maybe.. the L G B intergration is calibrating fine..


Thanks for your time.
Kostas.
John Hayes avatar
I wouldn't start out assuming that there's a problem with the filter.  It looks to me like you have some source of stray light in your system when you take the flat data.  That is the number one most common problem with flat data.  It seems like this very same question shows up on a weekly basis on these forums and more than 90% of the time, that's the problem.  Check for light leaks and for stray internal reflections.  It only takes a tiny amount of stray light to cause this kind of problem so you have to be VERY careful when you look for the cause.  A dead give-away that you've got a stray is when you see a bright region with moderately sharp edges--just like what I see in your flat data.


John
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Kostas Papageorgiou avatar
John Hayes:
I wouldn't start out assuming that there's a problem with the filter.  It looks to me like you have some source of stray light in your system when you take the flat data.  That is the number one most common problem with flat data.  It seems like this very same question shows up on a weekly basis on these forums and more than 90% of the time, that's the problem.  Check for light leaks and for stray internal reflections.  It only takes a tiny amount of stray light to cause this kind of problem so you have to be VERY careful when you look for the cause.  A dead give-away that you've got a stray is when you see a bright region with moderately sharp edges--just like what I see in your flat data.


John

Thaks for your answer.. i will  try to check it.  But is it a bit weird that there is a high consertration in the center of R?
andrea tasselli avatar
If you're using a flat panel to take your flats that isn't unusual at all. Best avoid flat panels if feasible and use sky (dusk) flats instead. Lesser chances of unwanted reflections.
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Marcelof avatar
I have the same equipment (camera, telescope and filters) and the same problem, this one seems to affect mainly the red color. If you have Astronomik Ha and Sii 6nm filters you will see the same central spot.

In my tests I found that if I change the camera, in this case to the ASI1600mm, the central spot disappears. The tests were performed the same night, same region of the sky, just changing the camera. The 294 has the spot, the 1600 does not. If you have another mono camera, do the test. 

And it's not the flats, they just highlight the problem. I can see a faint central glow in your red image without flats. On my Ha's it is more noticeable.

But it's even more complicated, I recently purchased the ASI 533mm and the center spot appeared again, WTF!.

Continuing with the tests I bought new filters, I was looking for something cheap and with good reviews and I decided for the Antlia 4.5 nm (Ha and Sii) and the problem disappeared at least in the 533. I have not tested them with the 294, but I am sure that the spot will not be present either.

And you already noticed that with the Optlong filters the spot also disappears.

My theory is that the problem is the result of a combination of 3 factors, the Astromomik filters, the camera (maybe the new Sony sensors are especially sensitive?) and probably the optics of the telescope itself. If any of these are replaced, the problem disappears.

And at least in my case, which I do mostly narrow band, that central spot turned out to be completely uncorrectable during processing.
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Kostas Papageorgiou avatar
In my tests I found that if I change the camera, in this case to the ASI1600mm, the central spot disappears. The tests were performed the same night, same region of the sky, just changing the camera. The 294 has the spot, the 1600 does not. If you have another mono camera, do the test.


*Wow! i have a 183mm i will try it tonight an report back...
Thomas 🌈🦄 avatar
There can be weird artifacts in filters (I have some pretty wonky narrowband flats!), but because it doesn't calibrate right I suspect that there's some stray light or a reflection or something that causes your flats to not be taken correctly—most likely something that's red, because it doesn't show in the other filters.
Kostas Papageorgiou avatar
Ok. A little update.
I tested the 183mm. Same results.
I taped down all the connections on telescope. flattener filter wheel etc... nothing.. same.
so I fliped the filters around..  and it seem to do the trick...  I don know.. the site on astronomik says that the orientetion does not matter...  maybe I eliminated the strait lights in the proccess...
the only thing to test now is the stars... strange halos etc from the flipping... but guess what... CLOUDS!!!

R




 not stacked flats..
John Hayes avatar
Ok, those flats look a LOT better.  However, the SNR looks terrible.  Are you stretching the data or underexposing the data?  Ideally, the peak of the histogram should fall somewhere in the range of 60% - 70% of the maximum ADU value.

The orientation of the filter should not matter at all–particularly for broadband filters.  I think that you might have changed something that you haven't accounted for.  Are you taking your flats in a pitch dark room?

John
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Thomas 🌈🦄 avatar
Good to hear! And hope those clouds go away!

Clear skies!
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Erlend Langsrud avatar
This is very interresting indeed!

I have a  similar problem with my newtonian and asi294mc camera. Baader CC but no filter.

There is a bright, well defined circular spot right in the center of the "corrected" lights. It does not appear in the flats in my case. I have taken flats using different methods, but the problem remains.

I speculate that the ressponse in the camera is somehow nonlinear, and that the flats are more saturated and taken with a short exposute.
Jonny Bravo avatar
The 294 series cameras are an absolute bear to calibrate. Throughout my time owning the 294MM, I have tried flats with light sources including iPad, high CRI video lights (LED based), incandescent bulbs, CFL bulbs, sky (at twilight), Pegasus FlatMaster 150.

I have tried direct lighting. I have tried indirect lighting. I have tried different diffusion materials from none to various different paper stocks, white shirts, white sheets.

I have tried different filters including Astrodon, Antlia, ZWO and 2 sets of Chroma.

I have tried different imaging trains and different scopes (GT81 reduced / native, EdgeHD reduced / native).

I have tried long exposure flats calibrated with matching dark flats. I have tried short exposure flats calibrated with matching dark flats. I have tried different target ADU.

I have spent literal DAYS of my life in my garage doing nothing but taking and evaluating flats LOL.

With my GT81 and 6AIII reducer/flattener, I find my best flats come from using the FlatMaster directly over the scope. I take flats with a minimum 5 second exposure at matching gain, offset, temp as my lights. I target 28k ADU.

With my EdgeHD, both with and without the reducer, I find my best flats are using my video lights to illuminate my garage wall (it's a flat white paint). I put a white tee over the end of the dew shield. I take flats with matching gain, offset, temp as my lights. I target 28k ADU.

Even these are not perfect. The green is especially impacted for me. I end up doing a lot of manual work during processing to mitigate the issue.

I am VERY seriously considering purchasing a 533MM. Smaller sensor, but it's definitely a cheaper alternative than going with a 2600 that would require me to completely replace the EFW and filters.
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John Hayes avatar
Erlend Langsrud:
This is very interresting indeed!

I have a  similar problem with my newtonian and asi294mc camera. Baader CC but no filter.

There is a bright, well defined circular spot right in the center of the "corrected" lights. It does not appear in the flats in my case. I have taken flats using different methods, but the problem remains.

I speculate that the ressponse in the camera is somehow nonlinear, and that the flats are more saturated and taken with a short exposute.

Some CMOS cameras may exhibit strange behavior when taking flat data with short exposures.  I recommend taking flat data using exposures of 2 seconds or longer.  As I've said, a well defined feature in your flat data is often an indication of stray light.  Remember that stray light does not have to come from a light leak.  It can also come from internal reflections from the inside of an extension tube.  Any light striking the sensor that mathematically adds to the signal creates a problem!

John
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Dale Penkala avatar
John Hayes:
Erlend Langsrud:
This is very interresting indeed!

I have a  similar problem with my newtonian and asi294mc camera. Baader CC but no filter.

There is a bright, well defined circular spot right in the center of the "corrected" lights. It does not appear in the flats in my case. I have taken flats using different methods, but the problem remains.

I speculate that the ressponse in the camera is somehow nonlinear, and that the flats are more saturated and taken with a short exposute.

Some CMOS cameras may exhibit strange behavior when taking flat data with short exposures.  I recommend taking flat data using exposures of 2 seconds or longer.  As I've said, a well defined feature in your flat data is often an indication of stray light.  Remember that stray light does not have to come from a light leak.  It can also come from internal reflections from the inside of an extension tube.  Any light striking the sensor that mathematically adds to the signal creates a problem!

John

I have to agree with you on this John especially with the 294 series cameras. There was a lot of threads on CN about the 294 sensors and what the best exposure length is. I’ve read anywhere from 1-8 seconds but for me I’ve found that 3secs are excellent for me and my calibrations works out very well. I do use the Optolong L-Pro, UV/IR cut, IDAS NBZ as well as the Antlia APL_T filters.

Dale
andrea tasselli avatar
Dale Penkala:
I have to agree with you on this John especially with the 294 series cameras. There was a lot of threads on CN about the 294 sensors and what the best exposure length is. I’ve read anywhere from 1-8 seconds but for me I’ve found that 3secs are excellent for me and my calibrations works out very well. I do use the Optolong L-Pro, UV/IR cut, IDAS NBZ as well as the Antlia APL_T filters.


Dale,

I'm assuming you use the ASI294MC-Pro for those filters. In over 2 years of near-continuous use I've never ever had an issue with flats with the typical exposure between 0.1s to 0.5s (between UV/IRCut, L-PRO and L-eNhance) so I don't see the fuss about this thing about the exposure length being critical.
Kostas Papageorgiou avatar
John Hayes:
Ok, those flats look a LOT better.  However, the SNR looks terrible.  Are you stretching the data or underexposing the data?  Ideally, the peak of the histogram should fall somewhere in the range of 60% - 70% of the maximum ADU value.

The orientation of the filter should not matter at all--particularly for broadband filters.  I think that you might have changed something that you haven't accounted for.  Are you taking your flats in a pitch dark room?

John

it is stretched.. no its in a normal day light room...




Thanks all for your Help! 
The flats its a bit mistery to me...
I will update with lights.....
Dale Penkala avatar
andrea tasselli:
Dale Penkala:
I have to agree with you on this John especially with the 294 series cameras. There was a lot of threads on CN about the 294 sensors and what the best exposure length is. I’ve read anywhere from 1-8 seconds but for me I’ve found that 3secs are excellent for me and my calibrations works out very well. I do use the Optolong L-Pro, UV/IR cut, IDAS NBZ as well as the Antlia APL_T filters.


Dale,

I'm assuming you use the ASI294MC-Pro for those filters. In over 2 years of near-continuous use I've never ever had an issue with flats with the typical exposure between 0.1s to 0.5s (between UV/IRCut, L-PRO and L-eNhance) so I don't see the fuss about this thing about the exposure length being critical.

I use these on the 294 and 071 @andrea tasselli many have had issues is all I was saying. There are plenty of threads out there about the 294 cameras sensors having issues with flats. All I was stating was I agree with  @John Hayes statement about going with longer times for flats. In my case I’ve been pretty lucky in that I haven’t had as much problems with my 294 flats but I do use the 3s times for my flats with my 294mc pro.

Dale
John Hayes avatar
Kostas Papageorgiou:
John Hayes:
Ok, those flats look a LOT better.  However, the SNR looks terrible.  Are you stretching the data or underexposing the data?  Ideally, the peak of the histogram should fall somewhere in the range of 60% - 70% of the maximum ADU value.

The orientation of the filter should not matter at all--particularly for broadband filters.  I think that you might have changed something that you haven't accounted for.  Are you taking your flats in a pitch dark room?

John

it is stretched.. no its in a normal day light room...




Thanks all for your Help! 
The flats its a bit mistery to me...
I will update with lights.....

OK,
1)  When you post flat data, display linear data.
2) Take your flats at night or in a dark room to reduce the possibility of a light leak.  If the problem persists, that points to stray internal reflections or a baffling issues as the next thing to look at.

Johh
Peter Zdrowowicz avatar
Hey Kostas,

were you able to solve your problem with the bright spot in the center?

Greets
Pete
Alex Nicholas avatar
I'm sure its been mentioned already, but its worth noting that the IMX294 is known to not like exposures shorter than 2s or so…

I had many issues creating flats for my 294, however once I dimmed my flat box that I've made sufficiently that I can take 3s flats through my UV/IR filter, and 6s flats through my Ha/OIII filter, I've had no issues.

IMX294 calibration is quite technical, and I've found that its really one of those trial and error things…
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Jeffery Richards avatar
John Hayes:
Ok, those flats look a LOT better.  However, the SNR looks terrible.  Are you stretching the data or underexposing the data?  Ideally, the peak of the histogram should fall somewhere in the range of 60% - 70% of the maximum ADU value.

The orientation of the filter should not matter at all--particularly for broadband filters.  I think that you might have changed something that you haven't accounted for.  Are you taking your flats in a pitch dark room?

John

John, I can't believe I'm going to say this , but I have to disagree here. Most (all?) filters have the anti-reflection coating on one side and that side needs to face the sensor to help prevent/minimize internal reflections causing issues such as this. Antlia clearly states this on their website. 

CS,
Jeff
Dark Matters Astrophotography avatar
Jeffery Richards:
John, I can't believe I'm going to say this , but I have to disagree here. Most (all?) filters have the anti-reflection coating on one side and that side needs to face the sensor to help prevent/minimize internal reflections causing issues such as this. Antlia clearly states this on their website. 

CS,
Jeff


This is not true for all filters. This is true for filter manufacturers that do not COAT the filters on both sides the same way. Insofar as are you actually referring to a true problem with coating itself. Astronomik and Chroma coat both sides of their filters the exact same way. Antlia and ZWO DO NOT and thus why they tell you about that.

Please do not go around telling people that because Antlia does things one way, that everyone should snap to their protocol. 

I have seen hours and hours of data with premium filters (like Chroma and Astronomik) flipped both ways and never saw a single difference at all in terms of the net images.
Dark Matters Astrophotography avatar
Alex Nicholas:
I'm sure its been mentioned already, but its worth noting that the IMX294 is known to not like exposures shorter than 2s or so...

I had many issues creating flats for my 294, however once I dimmed my flat box that I've made sufficiently that I can take 3s flats through my UV/IR filter, and 6s flats through my Ha/OIII filter, I've had no issues.

IMX294 calibration is quite technical, and I've found that its really one of those trial and error things...

This here ^^ is the likely culprit. I owned two of these 294 chipped cameras, one from ZWO and one from QHY and they both showed this exact same issue with calibration. 

I sold them both and never used cameras with that specific sensor again. Life and imaging nights are too short to deal with a shoddy design. 

-Bill
Jeffery Richards avatar
Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Jeffery Richards:
John, I can't believe I'm going to say this , but I have to disagree here. Most (all?) filters have the anti-reflection coating on one side and that side needs to face the sensor to help prevent/minimize internal reflections causing issues such as this. Antlia clearly states this on their website. 

CS,
Jeff


This is not true for all filters. This is true for filter manufacturers that do not COAT the filters on both sides the same way. Insofar as are you actually referring to a true problem with coating itself. Astronomik and Chroma coat both sides of their filters the exact same way. Antlia and ZWO DO NOT and thus why they tell you about that.

Please do not go around telling people that because Antlia does things one way, that everyone should snap to their protocol. 

I have seen hours and hours of data with premium filters (like Chroma and Astronomik) flipped both ways and never saw a single difference at all in terms of the net images.

Okay, fair enough...I'll shut up now.
John Hayes avatar
Jeffery Richards:
John, I can't believe I'm going to say this , but I have to disagree here. Most (all?) filters have the anti-reflection coating on one side and that side needs to face the sensor to help prevent/minimize internal reflections causing issues such as this. Antlia clearly states this on their website.


Jeff,
I am totally good with disagreement!  Heck, I'm not always right and it's a good opportunity to learn something.  However, in this case, I'm going to do the calculation to show you why the folks at Antila are saying that and why it makes little practice sense--in spite of the widespread notion that filter orientation is critical.  

Let's look at the amount of light that gets dumped into the stray reflections.  Here we are going to only consider thin film filters but the calculation holds true for absorption filters as well.  In the first simple case shown below, I've demonstrated how you compute the total amount of light in the stray reflections assuming a perfect AR coating on the filter.  If you think a little about this, the conclusion that the stay light will be the same no matter how the filter is oriented becomes obvious.  The AR coated surface simply  has no effect at all.



So, let's be more realistic and use a filter with an imperfect AR coating on the surface opposite to the thin film stack that forms the filter.  Here, I've picked different AR values for each surface just to make sure that it doesn't seem like I'm doing anything tricky--and to make it easier to follow the numbers.  We again assume that there are no absorption losses so that the reflectivity and the transmission always add to 100%.  You should check my work to make sure that I didn't miss anything but if you add them all up in either case, you get exactly the same result of a stray beam that contains 0.244% of the incident beam.



This means that as far as the amount of stray light is concerned, it doesn't matter which way the filters are oriented.  (This is really a consequence of the principle of conservation of energy.)   However, one of the things that we might want to worry about is the overall irradiance of the stray light incident on the sensor and in that case, it might make a VERY small difference which way you orient the filter--particularly with a faster optical system using thick filters.  When the filter side is closer to the sensor, you can see that it's contribution to the total stray light is a little bigger and since it's closer, the resulting defocused stray beam will be a little bit smaller, which will produce a slightly higher irradiance on the sensor than if the filter is reversed.  My sense is that for systems slower than around F/4, with 3 mm thick filters and more than ~10 mm between the filter and sensor, this is likely to be a VERY minor effect and if you can actually see the stray, the real problem will be with the AR coatings; not with the way the filter is oriented.  Flipping the filter is unlikely to reduce the irradiance enough to make the problem go away.  With really fast systems, it's better to use very thin filters both to reduce this problem but also to minimize the amount of SA that gets introduced.  Spacing the filter further away from the sensor will also help to spread the stray over a larger area as well.  So, for most practical purposes, the orientation of the filter will not matter.


John


PS. Before anyone jumps all over me, I should mention that I've only considered the first bounce for the stray light.  Of course you can look at 2nd, 3rd, and so on more bounces to add up the total stray light but the numbers get really small, really fast so that's a pointless exercise.
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