Which equipment to buy with 15-30k budget for nebulaes / deepsky object photography

Paul Macklin
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Contest avatar
Hi,
I want to gift a really nice next generation exuipment to my dad`s round birthday.
While Astrography is new to me, as an engineer I am not hesitate to learn and contribute my part to that, hopefully common new hobby.
My dad so far has done solely optical observations but this for already 20 years.

Based on several days youtube astrography lessons and my own preferences, here a list of things I consider as of now.

Notes: 
- My dad recently sold his EQ6R mount as it was too heavy for him to always carry back and forth in to the yard.
- While I would love to go full frame mono, the optics seems to need a quite high focal length which then might get into quite heavy telescope& mount again?
- One concern is the limitation of the mount for distant small nebulaes which then need bigger scopes and higher focal length?

My question to all of you, how would you spend 15-30k EUR on new equipment for serious backyard Deepsky/ Nebulae photography?


Telescope:
Fluorostar 91 APO / Fluorostar 132 / Takahashi FC-100
Or something in this category up to 10-12k EUR

Mount:
ZWO AM5 Mount  / ZWO TC40 Carbon

Control:
ZWO ASIAIR PLUS 

Guiding Telescope:
ZWO ASI120

Camera:
ASI6200MM Pro (mono) – DeepSky Cooled Camera
Electronic Filter Wheel
or 
ASI6200MC Pro (color) – DeepSky Cooled Camera 
or
ASI2600MM Pro (mono) – DeepSky Cooled Camera
Electronic Filter Wheel
or
ASI2600MC Pro (color) – DeepSky Cooled Camera 

Appreciate any thoughts.
andrea tasselli avatar
Would "none of those" do?

Better still, you'd want to tell us what you want to achieve with the hardware you want to buy and then we might be able to give you more informed opinions/choices.
Nadir Astro avatar
Yes, your dad needs a lightweight mount, something like new harmonic drive mounts with no need for counterweights.
Camera wise, go with mono for the best result, but consider longer integration and learning / stacking curve. Might be too much complicated for him.

When it comes to telescope though, either go with a small APO refractor like FSQ-85 or consider RASA8. Both will be good and they are very different.
Concise
Arun H avatar
I guess this is all relative and 30K EUR means different things to different people, but I personally would hesitate to spend that sum based on a few hours or days of youtube lessons. This is for your dad - if so, what are his interests and what does he want to achieve?
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kuechlew avatar
As Andrea pointed out we need more information for an informed recommendation.

Let's be very honest: The capability of your father to carry equipment will not improve over the upcoming years. So maybe something easy and lightweight is the way to go instead of something too ambitious. I'm in the process of deciding on a mount myself and get more and more inclined towards something which already proved that it works well, instead of aiming at the newest and latest. The ZWO AM5 looks promising but the final verdict is not yet out. With your budget I would recommend the RST-135 or RST-135E. 

Another appraoch could be to check whether a fixed installation of a mount on a pier in the backyard is an option in order to avoid lugging the stuff around. Maybe gifting him an observatory for his existing gear is the way to go?

With respect to the other stuff it all boils down to the question how much time and effort your father is intending to put into learning astrophotography if he prefered to do visual astronomy so far. Maybe he's happy restricting himself to EAA?

Clear skies
Wolfgang
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Uros Gorjanc avatar
Build an observatory, get the fattest mount and start with short focal lengths scope and any camera. Upgrade cam and OTA later with experiences.
CS! Urke
Mossyback avatar
The best thing I did in astrophotography was to install a permanent setup in the front yard. It eliminated lugging heavy equipment and setup time is just a few minutes. In my case I purchased a Skyshed Pod ($3,000 Can.) It’s easy to assemble and they ship all over the world. Of course this is all dependent on being able to have the space to do it.  This also widens the choice for equipment as weight is no longer a factor. Also, for deep sky stuff my vote would go to a refractor.

‘’Hank
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Andy Wray avatar
I have a few questions:

* Would your Dad have space for and be up for a permanent observatory setup?  As others have said:  that would get rid of all the hassle associated with lugging heavy equipment in and out.
* That was a fairly meaty mount for visual observing … do you know what scope he had on it so far? It would be good to understand where he is starting from.
* How old will he be:  I'm in my sixties and the learning curve has been fine, but if he is turning 80, then that may be harder.

and a few comments:

* If you decide to go mono, then factor in the filter costs; they can be significant.  I'm personally a great fan of mono, so I'm not trying to deter you.
* Field of view of the scope/camera combination will dictate what you can easily photograph.  You can enter the camera and scope details into something like Stellarium and see what kind of objects are best captured.  As an example: I personally have a 906mm scope with a 4/3rd camera and find it is a good scope in general for larger nebulas and a lot of galaxies, however it is not a good wide-field setup.
* Going full-frame will be demanding on other components and will mean spending a lot of money on filters.
* You will need to add a guidescope or OAG into the mix (albeit they shouldn't be that expensive).
* I personally would also add an autofocusser.

One last thought:

* My daughter probably spends less than EUR 100 on my birthdays, but it is always very thoughtful.  You could scale it back a bit, get him on the journey and then add stuff each year as he and you learn more.  My entire astrophotography setup cost less than $5,000 as an example.
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Ian McIntyre avatar
I don't know what to tell you to buy. But I can tell you I will need to buy some kleenex as I get teary thinking about how happy I would be with that budget.
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Peter Myers avatar
consider a birthday gift….where he can control a remote control imaging setup   like iTelescopes?
Brian Boyle avatar
Some great suggestions above.  

I am not which round birthday it is (but I guess 60 or 70). As someone who sits in between, and I had a son who wished to spend that amount then I would vote for either a permanent observatory or subscriptions to remote observatory.

For that amount, a 10 year subscription to a consortium would generate all the images he could handle….

The fact he sold his EQ6R may indicate he is less interested in doing it himself these days.  When I passed 60 and decided I had enough of lugging heavy kit around (including the EQ6R) I build my own observatory to house it.  

One issue was the weight, but the other issue was setup time.  With a permanent observatory, I probably save myself about 1hour a night minimim in set up and tear down time.

 At 60 or 70, remaining quality time is increasingly important.  Hence subscription or observatory.
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Paul Macklin avatar
Hey, Brian, 

FWIW, I'd avoid the FLT 91. I have it, and the optics are great, but the mechanics has sag and tilt. Not super happy with the debugging. I loved my ZS61, but this is the last WO I'll buy. 

If I were starting in that aperture range today, I'd look at a ~106mm TS Optics Photoline, or the soon-to-arrive triplet from Astrotech (110EDA). Or for a bit more spend, the 85 mm or 106 mm Tak FSQ as mentioned above. 

I'd also look into an OAG. (I use the zwo OAG + helical focuser + asi120mm in this range of focal length). It's such a no-nonsense setup, and one less dew heater to worry about. 

A nice alternative to a permanent setup is a JMI Wheelie. I have my cem70 (and tripod) + 8" EdgeHD + counterweights permanently installed on a wheelie bar, and it just takes minutes to get it up and on my deck and off again, including time to put up the homemade ramp and angle it through my relatively narrow garage back door.
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Rouz Astro avatar
For serious work you would need slightly better gear I would say. Your budget is healthy and you are welcome to take a look at my setup and sample images:
https://rouzastro.com/observatory-2/


This is in my backyard you can click on the recent images in the gallery for samples:
https://rouzastro.com/nebulae/



CS
Rouz
base16 avatar
My suggestion:

Lightweight, highly capable mount+tripod:
Mount: RST-135
Tripod: Innorel RT90C (or the Article rebranded ones)

Wide-field scopes are better for nebula/deep-sky targets, at around 500mm focal length with f/5 or so speed is imo most versatile to get needed resolution and have enough targets.. Those massive scopes with long FLs are only good for small galaxy & planetary targets. Personally I find them boring, and like the 500mm focal length range:
- Takahashi FSQ-106
- Askar FRA500

Camera:
ASI2600MM Pro or ASI6200MM Pro + 2" filters
or ASI2400MC Pro for full-frame colors, no need for a full narrowband filter set. But you might want to consider a dual-narrowband filter if the plan is to image from light-polluted areas.

Guide-scope, guide camera, asiair and such to go along with it.
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Contest avatar
Thank you for all of your suggestions. Some really helped me already quite a lot! Thank you so much for this.

My father obviously was overwhelmed. He turned 69 now. The gift is for today`s and also his 70th birthday. We were able to talk about various models, setups etc. .
Also we have been at his local astro dealer and had a great informative session there. Together with all your great inputs, slowly we get closer to a preferred setup.

The setup we are aiming for should still be a portable lightweight setup. 
Unfortunately a permanent setup in the garden as well a mount with wheels is no option for him, given the space he has. He prefers a quick and easy to setup rig.
He is not willing and able to carry heavy equipment around. Maybe in few years for myself?

What do we want to achieve with the setup?
Photography of whatever is possible with a light, portable but advanced setup. Set it up in the garden, set the program and let it capture through the night. He likes galaxies. I like spectacular colorful nebulaes. 
If the setup allows also visual observation, it would be a nice to have as it would make most of his other lightweight manual setups more or less obsolete.
About time he wants to spend, I think the easier, lighter, faster to setup, the more he will use it. I expect he would use it 2-3 times a month, also limited by unfavorable weather. 


Telescope:
As for the scope, a refractor is almost set, I think around a focal length of 400-800mm. Plus additional "x1.6" lens or similar.
An FSQ106 looks quite promising, only issue is that it would be for camera setup only, non visual. Also the leadtime of 6month could be an issue, albeit not a killer criteria. FSQ106 vs FSQ85 opinions?

His dealer also threw in an option for a Borg 107FL which we had a chance to see in person. There is just little but still useful feedback available online.
Super lightweight, Carbon tube, impressive optics, for visual and camera suitable. On the negative side what I read online, maybe issues with true colors? Also some issues with scratches on the aluminum. Price wise 2/3 of a FSQ.

William Optics, super many youtubers are using them, crazy. But then I also read some critical reports with quality issues, also mentioned here in this thread. For this reason, as of now I would just consider it as "starting with" option.

TS-Optics, Astrotech, Askar etc. are not just another chinese products? Worth to consider as in between Williams Optics and TAK?

Mount:
Harmonic drive is almost set. His dealer recommended not to go with a ZWO AM5 mostly due to the steep tracking inaccuracies which can get difficult to get down to a low enough level even with tracking. Rather he recommends something like a CEM40(EQ).
As for the CEM40 I found there are incompatibilities in  between ASIAIR and the CEM40 electronics which requires a USB HUB in between to solve some incompatibilities. A no go for an electronics engineer like me. 
HEM44 is not yet available, but HEM27 seems to have the same compatibility issues.
There are other recommendations here like the products from rainbow astro like RST-135 or RST-135E. Still have to study them now smile
A big concern for me is how fast a good polar alignment can be achieved, how easy, quick and accurate it can be set.
Plate solving with ASIAIR and an easy to adjust and accurate mount?

Controller:
For ease of use and peace of mind, I still tend towards ASIAIR. But then I did not spend much time yet to check out the other systems yet, albeit I already installed and looked into software like NINA etc. 
His dealer was not fan of ASIAIR and recommended to go more into a windows setup with more software options like Phoenix, NINA, etc.
Thoughts?

Camera: 
So far I tend to go into the direction of mono. Therefore I would compromise on the sensor size and could accept a APS-C sensor size. 
Probably something like ASI2600MM, ZWO 2" Filterwheel and OAG, EAF, ASI120mm guide camera, Astronomik filters. 
Light pollution is an issue also at our place in central Switzerland.

Curious about your further thoughts and inputs, really appreciate and helpful!
churmey avatar
If I couldn't answer that question myself…………and if you really wanted to spend that $$, i'd recommend maybe doing a project and building a nice observatory with a pier.  That would be an incredible gift too dad - a nice place for his current equipment that can be permanently  in place and operated remotely if need be.  I would wait on spending that value on equipment until I understood specific areas of interest more. Good luck.
Andy Wray avatar
Like many on here, I use NINA running on a miniPC running Windows to control everything.  In my case I have the miniPC strapped permanently to one of my tripod legs.  I then control that miniPC using remote desktop over wifi from my main Windows processing desktop inside. I purchased the Mele Quieter 3 miniPC and it works fine.

Nina has a 3 star polar alignment add-in that doesn't need line of site of Polaris.  It works very well and is a very quick polar alignment tool.
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kuechlew avatar
Lightweight and well suited for galaxies is a bit of a contradiction for a serious AP rig in my opinion. For most galaxies you need serious amount of focus length which unfortunately goes hand in hand with weight and bulk. 

While I'm a big fan of NINA I would still stick to a strict "KISS" approach for a 70 year old person. I'm 58 with a 40 years amateur photography  background and build several PCs for myself over the years but was still surprised by the learning curve I had to master over the last year when entering the hobby. No rocket science but I wouldn't impose this experience on a 70 year old. 

If I were you based on the information you gave us I would buy your father an EAA device like the Unistellar eVscope 2 or the Vaonis Stellina. There is no easier and fun way to watch galaxies even if the result does not deserve to be called astrophotography. 


M82 (8 min unprocessed live stack with an Unistellar Equinox) as an example how bad it is, but I'm still having a blast every session I use it ...
Maybe the eVscope 2 is closest to his visual astronomy experience. Setup time is 5 minutes and learning curve is close to zero. It's the best way to get quick results these days in my opinion - if your willing to live with the obvious quality limitations.

Then in addition start a common project with your father to build an imaging rig step by step together. I'm sure he will enjoy the time together with his son and at some point you will have a nice working rig and a lasting memory of time well spent with your father. 

Beeing located in Europe you may consider an Avalon mount like the M-zero, they seem to have a good reputation.

Clear skies
Wolfgang
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Paul Macklin avatar
Stellina is a great thought for easy + nice cross between AP and visual. Nice idea! 

Very much agreed that under 1200mm or so of focal length, you're not going to have a lot of luck on galaxies. 8" EdgeHD is probably a best bet there, due to weight and focal length. I wouldn't advise that huge of a refractor. 

As for FSQ 106 vs 85, I've spent a lot of time window shopping on them, and the aperture on the 106 is seriously appealing, but I've seen excellent results with the much lighter 85. 

As for AT and TS, I see a lot of people move to them after WO. Better QC from what I can see, and everybody I've seen with them has had good things to say. I would view them as a nice step between WO and Tak. My next scope will probably be an AT, but I'm seriously eyeing those TS 96mm photolines. 

The folks at astronomics quality check the ATs before sending them out. The folks at Telescope Service check the TS scopes. Those are serious draw for me, personally.
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Dale Penkala avatar
1st I want to say I wish I was your dad! He is a lucky guy! I whole heartedly mean that!

Based on everything you have stated and what others have suggested/recommended here is what I personally feel you should at the very least take a look at.

1) I know you said that an observatory isn’t an option because of space, but I’m sorry I have to put an emphasis on finding a way to do that especially with your budget. Is not that much if your considering spending that much on a setup. There are options not to mention many of us here on AB have setups that are in a very small but permanent setup. It just opens the doors for you.

2) It has been mentioned about a scope. I think that the Stellarvue Raptor CF could be a consideration for you. Optically I think its in the same category as your Tak especially with .99 Strehl ratios. If your interested here is the link to the scope I’m referring to. https://www.stellarvue.com/svx102t-r-raptor/

3) As far as a mount goes I’ll stay out of that one only because there has been many that have good merit that has already been mentioned. That said I’m quite partial to a smaller GTO AP.

4) Camera Mono/OSC There is quite a learning curve here not to mention added costs with individual filters, but as a couple have mentioned a OSC can truly produce really nice images and its not nearly as long of a learning curve. Yes there will be a learning curve no matter what way you go but I’m suggesting to consider a good OSC camera 1st and if after you get to using that and still want to move to mono, then do so because you will find that a OSC can save you time especially if your weather isn’t cooperating. Its just my suggestion here. I use OSC and I’m quite pleased with the results that I have been able to achieve.

5) Software/Control - I know a lot of people like the asi air from ZWO and while many have good luck with it like everything in AP there is definitely a learning curve with it as well. I’d suggest a windows based laptop using freeware like APT, NINA and my personal favorite SharpCap Pro. SharpCap is free but the Pro version is $18 a year which gets you an excellent PA routine not to mention other very nice features. PHD2 is free guiding software. Several good options for planetarium software as well that are free. CDC, Stellarium, etc..

6) Processing software / I didn’t see this mentioned but this is a whole other subject matter but I’ll just highlight there are a lot of good Free software out there to help with this. DSS can process your data and then for post processing you Siril, Astronomy tool, Gimp, and many more. If you get more serious you may find that you want something more dedicated and powerful like APP or PixInsight but these come with a cost, then you have Photo Shop that many use however thats a subscription based program.

Summery: While I appreciate that you are willing to spend this kind of money, I think you should prioritize and move gradually so that you don’t get overwhelmed. AP is a great and rewarding hobby but it can be extremely frustrating and ALWAYS is time consuming! If at all possible seriously consider an permanent setup/observatory or something to help eliminate having to move the equipment. It will also give you more time to image and will be less work getting an imaging session going and more pleasant. Many here on AB have apartments and have a setup on there balcony’s. I don’t know what dad has now for visual observing but consider utilizing what he has 1st to see if he is going to like and enjoy moving in that direction. If it ends up with a lot of frustration or road blocks that he might not be willing to figure out then at least you wouldn’t have spent all of that money to find out.

Good luck and have a great time with dad!

Dale
pabloa avatar
Considering your budget, save a part of it for a powerful desktop (anyone tried the mac studio around here?) and a color calibrated screen if he doesn't have one already. We spend so much time stacking and working images…
Luca Marinelli avatar
First of all, as others have said, good on your to give back to your dad and plan an activity that you can share and learn together.

Something that hasn't been asked yet is what kind of skies your dad has access to. If you live in an urban/suburban environment with significant light pollution
you may want to focus on an imaging setup that is especailly geared towards narrowband imaging (mono camera with Ha, OIII, SII narrowband filters). In my mind this is a major decision point between OSC and mono cameras. It's true that OSC with dual band filters can get the job done but in light polluted skies the ability to use ultranarrowband filters makes a really big difference.

The second decision point is the mount. In your latest post you have mentioned the iOptron CEM40 in the same line as harmonic mounts. The CEM40 is a conventional geared equatorial mount. It's fairly lightweight for the load it carries (compared to the EQ6R) but nowhere near as light as a harmonic mount. It requires counterweights. I do agree with your dealer that getting good performance from the CEM40 will be easier and more reliable than with a harmonic mount. It would be great if your dad had a chance to lift both mounts and see how much tracking performance he is willing to compromise in favor of weight. I own a RST 135 (as well as two other heavier equatorial mounts for imaging) and it's an incredibly light mount. I use it primarily for visual astronomy but it would also be appropriate for imaging at a reasonable image scale (~1 arc-sec/pixel). A possible compromise may be the RST 135E, with more reasonable periodic error due and still extremely portable. Pricier, of course. Again, think of weight, tracking performance, and cost tradeoff. there are other manufacturers coming out with harmonic mounts (Pegasus Astro for example) that are worth considering.

The third decision point is focal length. I think you are on the right track with a relatively fast ~100mm aperture refractor. However that means 500-650mm focal length which makes the setup more focused on large nebulae than galaxies (other than the big ones - M31, M33, maybe M101 - or groups of galaxies - Leo triplet, Virgo supercluster, etc). I own and FSQ106 and it is a fantastic imaging scope. Unless your dealer has a unit coming in that is not spoken for, six month lead time may be optimistic. I have heard of dealers in the US quoting 1-2 year lead time recently for new orders. You can also put a wanted ad on astromart or other classifieds and buy used - often not a bad option. Some FSQ106 have had QC issues on delivery and had to go back for collimation. This may be a lengthy process if the telescope has to go back to Japan. 

On the camera side, you mentioned APS-C and full frame cameras. Full frame is great for big wide field views but requires a lot of hard drive space, compute power for image processing, and puts a lot of strain on the optics to perform adequately to the edge of the sensor. My FSQ106 covers a full frame sensor well for narrowband data but lateral chromatic aberration is fairly significant in the corners in RGB imaging. There aren't a lot of refractors out there that really cover a full frame sensor with 3.76um pixels all the way to the corners with no optical aberrations. None that I can think of in the ~500mm focal length range (closest is probably AP Stowaway but you can't source that new). Go on Astrobin, look for images with equipment you are considering and try to see how it does with APS-C and full frame sensors. You don't want to be disappointed when you receive the optics.

Good luck!

Luca
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Pablo Gazmuri avatar
Just a suggestion: if you can't build an observatory, buy him a wheeley bars or similar rolling tripod.  You can mount a large scope on that and he will be able to wheel it out to the yard.  I use a rolling tripod and can be setup in 5 mins. Batteries are mounted to the tripod so there's literally no setup, just turn them on and go.
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Paul Macklin avatar
Ditto on wheelie bars. I have my cem70 + 8" EdgeHD on a wheelie bar, and it's liberating to set up the counter weights and balance once and it's good to go. 

Even with time to set up a homemade ramp, it's 5 minutes to role it from the garage to the deck.
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Arun H avatar
Luca Marinelli:
None that I can think of in the ~500mm focal length range (closest is probably AP Stowaway but you can't source that new).


Pretty sure this is what Luca meant, but thought I'd clarify - the AP Stowaway will only cover a full frame sensor without aberrations with the 92FF field flattener (which would be f/7 and 644mm focal length); the 92TCC teleconverter (488mm, f/5.3) will cover APS-C, not full frame. And yes, they are not being produced new and sell for a hefty premium if buying used.

Edit: I believe Stellarvue's SVX line, with respective field flattener, is also specified to cover full frame. I have no idea how well they do with 3.76 micron pixels, though.
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