Does full well capacity matter for luminance data?

6 replies475 views
Anderl avatar
hey, 

full well is one of those things I don't fully understand. 
if I am right full well capacity equals the amount of photons that can hit a pixel until the pixel is full and bright structures are basically burned out, mostly stars in ap. 

the thing I am just wondering about is, does full well matter if I combine luminance data (with burned out stars) with rgb data that contains well exposed stars? 
I mean the color information is in the rgb data anyway. 

cs 
Andi
kuechlew avatar
I would claim that it matters in particular for the luminance data.

Let's assume you're taking an LRGB image with a mono camera. R, G and B data each collects a fraction of the photons entering your scope based on the red, green and blue part of the object. The luminance data consists of all photons your camera sensor is able to record - maybe clipped by some IR/UV filter you may choose to apply. So the luminance data has a much stronger signal than the R, G and B channel for the same exposure time. 

Now let's imagine you have two cameras, one with a large full well capacity and one with a small one and both have the same read noise and the same dark current. The camera with the larger full well capacity will allow longer luminance (and R,G,B) exposures than the camera with the small full well capacity. As a result you will have a better signal to noise ratio (SNR) with the larger full well capacity. (Remark: Shot noise will be the same for both with the same integration time).

SNR  is always better in the luminance data than in the R,G,B data if you make use of the full well capacity of your camera. In my humble understanding that's the main reason why you're doing LRGB instead of plain RGB at all. The statement that L determines the details of the image while R, G, B is for the colors may be an exaggeration because R, G, B obviously contribute to the details too. But by blowing out part of the L data you will lose a lot of the potential of the LRGB approach because you will lose details in the highlights.

Hope this helps
Wolfgang
Helpful Respectful Engaging
Björn Arnold avatar
Hi Andi,

I think it's best two split your post into two distinct questions/matters:
Full well capacity:
1. Full well capacity isn't given in photons but electrons since the pixel is "collecting"/storing electrons. For photons, one needs to know quantum efficiency which by itself is wavelength dependent (and the pixel actually doesn't care about the photons and their wavelengths once it's got an electron). A technical detail but noteworthy. 
2. Full well capacity by itself doesn't tell the whole story. What matters is how you come from the number of electrons to the digital number in the image and that depends on additional quantities: read noise, analogue-digital-converter gain and bit-depth. If you take these other quantities into account, you know what the dynamic range of the pixel is. 

Of course, if two pixels have reached full well, you couldn't tell if they received a different number of photons as there are not more electrons "created".

L vs. RGB:
If you have a saturated pixel in L, it will become white, no matter what RGB is. To combine L and RGB, one takes the Hue (color) and saturation from the RGB image and the Luminance from the L channel. In HSL space, any "color" with L=100 will be white. 

CS,
Björn
Helpful
dkamen avatar
Full well matters for detail too. This is easy to test, simply take an overexposed photo and the stars will look like little furballs instead of points. Lost detail.

PS full well is proportional to the number of photons for a given gain, it is not measured in photons as such. But that's irrelevant in this discussion smile
Blaine Gibby avatar
I always thought of well capacity as a bucket. If you have a big bucket, you can collect more photons before spilling over. If you have a smaller bucket then you fill up faster and you spill over into other buckets and you get bloated stars with shorter exposure.
Concise Engaging
Tim McCollum avatar
You never want your bucket full, else some will spill out into the adjacent pixels.
Well Written
Kevin Morefield avatar
the thing I am just wondering about is, does full well matter if I combine luminance data (with burned out stars) with rgb data that contains well exposed stars?

Andi,

Others have answered correctly that FWC matters with luminance as much or more than RGB.  But to your question about combining with well exposed stars I think there are two answers depending on what you mean:

If you mean that when you create the LRGB combo the well exposed color data will "fill in" the overexposed Luminance data, no it won't.  The fully saturated areas of the Luminance data will still be white because the brightness level of all three RGB channels will be 100% or in other words identical. It may be best to think of the Luminance values inherent in the RGB data being replaced by the values from the Luminance master.  Any area where the brightness of the luminance exceeds maybe 80% will not hold the color and will be white. 

If you mean combining the Luminance values of the RGB data with the Luminance to create a super-luminance, the answer is maybe that could work but it's still not a good idea.  Imagine a star that is blown-out 100% in the luminance and in the RGB data was at 50%.  Creating a traditional SuperLuminance might combine the data with a weighting of something like .25 for the RGB data and .75 for the Luminance.  In this case 100*.75 + 50*.25 = 87.5% of saturation - still over the 80% threshold I mentioned above.  But worse, the transition between the saturated and not saturated parts of the star in the luminance data would still be visible, so you would have a hard ring in the stars.  You might be able to combine the RGB Luminance data and the Luminance using a star mask that smoothly blended the star cores of the RGB stars into the Luminance data.   This would exceedingly difficult to do well.  

By far, the best idea is to avoid saturating your stars in the Luminance data. 

Kevin
Helpful Insightful
Related discussions
About the calibration and usage of cameras with the Gsense 4040 sensor
Dear all, for almost exactly two years now we (Dr. Karl Remeis-Observatory Bamberg) are using a Moravian C4-16000 EC which houses the Gsense 4040 sensor from Gpixel for our university astronomy lab course and public outreach purposes. Initially we ha...
Discusses camera sensors and their technical specifications relevant to full well capacity.
Feb 28, 2024
Drizzle vs Focal Length vs SNR
Fellow Astrophotographers, until recently I was under the impression that drizzle other than 1x is only useful for gaining a bit of detail on under sampled data. Few months ago russell croman released his free to use mtf-analyzer https://www.rc-astro...
Addresses signal-to-noise ratio and data combination techniques in astrophotography processing.
Mar 15, 2024