"55mm" standard distance and sensor-surface distance tolerance

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Georg N. Nyman avatar
Hi everyone,

Something which I wanted to post is about the usual "55mm" standard distance from scope to sensor plane. All literature known to me states, that the standard distance is 55mm. OK, but nowhere it states, that this distance is only correct, if NO filters are inbetween the sensor and the e.g. 48mm thread. I think, that is a mistake - why? Because as example, a 2mm L-extreme filter would optically add about 0.7mm optical path to the existing mechanical 55mm and therefore one needs to add about 0.7mm mechanical distance - like distance rings of 0.5mm + 0.2mm to get the optical 55mm distance.
Same considerations of course are valid for all other distances out of literature - like 78mm for Riccardi reducer etc. etc….
Am I right - I think so… please comment on this - thank you!

Next: What I cannot understand is the fact, that almost all camera manufacturers are regarding the distance from sensor surface to the front surface of their camera state - as example - 17.5 +/- 0.5mm. Using a large field camera like APS or Fullframe - that uncertainty means optically a lot and I do not understand this manufacturing tolerance. Chip thickness is precise to less than one micron, mounting boards are precise to less than 10 microns and as all cameras are not "hand-made", machine tolerances are less than a couple of tens of microns - so even adding up all tolerances in one direction, that should result in not more than maybe 0.1mm if at all. Why now those large tolerances?  Camera manufacturers like Canon, Nikon, Olympus etc. stay for their DSLR cameras with their tolerances within a couple of microns…so why not for cooled astrocameras as well?
No idea, why - any ideas from those who manufacture the astrocameras and read this post maybe?

Thanks for your interest and contributions!

CS,
Georg
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Andy Wray avatar
I'll only comment on your first point:  you are right and as an example ZWO's manuals suggest 56mm distance when you have a filter wheel installed and 55mm without.
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Marc avatar
Best guess regarding point 2 is that the manufacturers essentially point out to you that you should not calculate with exactly the numbers provided since several factors in your imaging train can move the overall distance in or out by a fraction of a millimeter. Be that filters, or your corrector/scope not being *exactly* at 55mm working distance.

I bought a camera once from a QHY partner and he suggested to me: take those numbers, substract 1mm and have a couple of spacers at hand - and then work your way out until you hit the perfect distance. Essentially, there is no way back if you are already too far out with your chosen setup from the get-go.

Another explanation is that metal and plastic expand and contract depending on the temperature. Considering that these cameras are used in conditions from -20° to +30°… although we are talking fractions of a millimeter here.
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andrea tasselli avatar
I have various cameras from different manufactures and none is giving this much tolerance in the position of the chip. In fact I can't remember of any. Not that it really matters as what matters is the tolerance of the field corrector to spacing tolerances, which is far more interesting figure to know and hardly published.

Marc:
Another explanation is that metal and plastic expand and contract depending on the temperature. Considering that these cameras are used in conditions from -20° to +30°... although we are talking fractions of a millimeter here.


It's all metal and it's all aluminium alloy, mostly 7075. This would yield for a 55mm spacing a variation of 0.06 mm for the widest range of temperature mentioned above.
Georg N. Nyman avatar
andrea tasselli:
I have various cameras from different manufactures and none is giving this much tolerance in the position of the chip. In fact I can't remember of any. Not that it really matters as what matters is the tolerance of the field corrector to spacing tolerances, which is far more interesting figure to know and hardly published.

Marc:
Another explanation is that metal and plastic expand and contract depending on the temperature. Considering that these cameras are used in conditions from -20° to +30°... although we are talking fractions of a millimeter here.


It's all metal and it's all aluminium alloy, mostly 7075. This would yield for a 55mm spacing a variation of 0.06 mm for the widest range of temperature mentioned above.

Andrea, this screenshot is from the offical specs for the QHY 268 camera series.....look yourself at their website.. as you can see, they quote +/- 0.5mm tolerance..



And this is for the 294 series cameras...


CS,
Georg
andrea tasselli avatar
Hi Georg,

So they quote up to 1 mm variability on the position of the sensor, that's QHY. I wonder whether their manufacturing is so lax or something specific is at play. This said, my SXs (2), ZWOs (3), Altair(1) all quote numbers with no tolerances.
Dale Penkala avatar
As a retired Tool and Die Maker of 35yrs, there are standard machining tolerances and while I’ll admit, these are quite lax the closer you have to hold a tolerance the more time/effort there is which in turn costs money. 

Based on my experience (mind you this is MY experience) many manufacturers that run very high production rates base their machining/process off of statistics. I’m not going to get into that, but the bottom line is whatever there process runs statistically, is a lot of times how they set there standard tolerance.  For instance if they run thru the process for a part and their process shows a +/- .008” variation the standard tolerance I’ve seen is +/- .010” or for those that are more familiar with the metric unit of measure .010” converts over to .25mm or depending on your accuracy .254mm.

The tolerance between a housing and sensor (while I agree would be nice to know as accurately as possible) isn’t so critical to the point that it will not make that camera “NOT WORK” or be a scraped part,housing etc.. for the simple fact it has the ability to be adjusted thru various spacers whether it be different thickness spacers or a threaded variable spacer (which I have many). Not to mention all CC/FF/FR all have a stated back focus distance and that can even vary based on a persons individual setup.

As for the electronics/boards/chips etc.. while I have ideas why I will not go there because this is FAR from my field of expertise.

Dale
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Andy Wray avatar
Let's be honest:  all manufacturers will have a tolerance on how accurately the sensors are mounted.  They are not machined metal components and as such QHY are probably being honest by saying there could be as much as 0.5mm mounting difference.  In reality, I would guess it is somewhat less than that.  At the end of the day, being 0.25mm (on average) out on a backfocus distance of 55mm probably won't be that noticeable in the final images once you have focussed them.  I'm using a ZWO with coma corrector with a backspacing of 56mm when it should be 55.7 (based on filter glas thickness), but not sure I need to tweak it any more as the stars look round across the field anyway.
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Dale Penkala avatar
Andy Wray:
Let's be honest:  all manufacturers will have a tolerance on how accurately the sensors are mounted.  They are not machined metal components and as such QHY are probably being honest by saying there could be as much as 0.5mm mounting difference.  In reality, I would guess it is somewhat less than that.  At the end of the day, being 0.25mm (on average) out on a backfocus distance of 55mm probably won't be that noticeable in the final images once you have focussed them.  I'm using a ZWO with coma corrector with a backspacing of 56mm when it should be 55.7 (based on filter glas thickness), but not sure I need to tweak it any more as the stars look round across the field anyway.

Agreed Andy! Like I said there is tolerance/variation between parts plain and simple. There are items on the market that allow us to tweak the variation down to a minimum so that the end result is something we can be happy with. If it isn’t we look for another alternative.

Dale
Georg N. Nyman avatar
Andy Wray:
I'll only comment on your first point:  you are right and as an example ZWO's manuals suggest 56mm distance when you have a filter wheel installed and 55mm without.

The change from 55 to 56mm is not exactly correct - the filters are usually 2mm thick.....with a refractive index of approx. 1.5 for glass, the optical path difference is about 0.7mm. I experienced with rather wider open refractors plus for example the Riccardi reducer, that the distance needs to pretty accurate to get good stars in the corners... often a difference of 0.1mm makes or breaks good stars... IMO

CS,
Georg
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kuechlew avatar
Georg N. Nyman:
Andy Wray:
I'll only comment on your first point:  you are right and as an example ZWO's manuals suggest 56mm distance when you have a filter wheel installed and 55mm without.

The change from 55 to 56mm is not exactly correct - the filters are usually 2mm thick.....with a refractive index of approx. 1.5 for glass, the optical path difference is about 0.7mm. I experienced with rather wider open refractors plus for example the Riccardi reducer, that the distance needs to pretty accurate to get good stars in the corners... often a difference of 0.1mm makes or breaks good stars... IMO

CS,
Georg

After being fully awake now it's actually quite easy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-mount#

55mm is the flange distance according to the specs of the T-mount defined in 1957. It seems the T-mount then became the standard mount for telescopes and that's why we have 55mm as the standard backfocus (with plenty of exceptions though ...).

Clear skies
Wolfgang
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kuechlew avatar
Oops, posted this to the wrong of two threads …