How do I avoid this?

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Piers Palmer avatar
Earlier in the month, I gathered data on Markarian's Chain using my FRA400. This image is the result and I'm quite disappointed as the stars are so bloated and it's generally pretty poor. 



Is this a result of the wrong scope for the target or just the wrong exposure settings? The shot was taken using 60 x 30"  subs. at gain 100.

I'd like to have another stab tonight as it's clear but quite breezy and my 8" wouldn't really be much use as a result. Any tips on getting smaller stars and better clarity?
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Bray Falls avatar
Hard to gauge the quality of the stars off of a processed image, there appear to be some convolution artifacts and strange clipping effects going on here. Upload a raw image with only a stretch to get a better look. And for smaller stars and better clarity, dial in your focus, your autoguiding, and get as much data as you can.
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Piers Palmer avatar
Thank you. I’ll do that shortly.

Collecting lots of data isn’t without its difficulties here, but a new moon and a good forecast tonight, I stand a chance.
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Piers Palmer avatar
I can't seem to save as a .raw file but here's a jpeg of that data with only a STF applied to it...



...and here's the same but from a single sub

Andy Wray avatar
I had a quick go at reducing your stars as per below.  To be honest, 60x30 secs subs is a very short exposure so I think you ended up with a good result considering that.  FWIW:  using something like Starnet to extract the stars so that you can work on them separately from the galaxies makes it so much easier to do processing (that's what I did below).  Do you do this?

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Piers Palmer avatar
Thanks Andy! What were you using for that? I've used Starnet++ before now but I think that's more for getting rid of stars entirely, and I've never really got my head around masking. Was it one of those techniques?
Andy Wray avatar
Piers Palmer:
Thanks Andy! What were you using for that? I've used Starnet++ before now but I think that's more for getting rid of stars entirely, and I've never really got my head around masking. Was it one of those techniques?

I moved to Pixinsight a couple of months ago and haven't look back.  The basic technique I'm using is:

* Stretch the image until the stars look roughly like I'd like them in the final image
* Use Starnet++ to both remove the stars from the original image and at the same time create a colour star mask (i.e. you end up with a starless image and a coloured image of the stars)
* Use various image stretching techniques to make the starless image of nebulas/galaxies really pop
* Maybe use something like deconvolution on the star mask to shrink them a bit
* Then use pixelmath to add the two images back together
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Andy Wray avatar
FWIW:  this is what your Rosette nebula photo looks like with smaller stars.  You have some really nice captures that with a tiny bit of re-processing would be absolutely amazing:
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Walter Leonhard Schramböck avatar
At first I always thought that my camera was bad, then that my telescope was bad, meanwhile I realized that bad seeing and/or bad guiding is mostly responsible for bloated stars. My tracking device is very used and has never been maintained, and my autoguiding equipment is not top-notch either. That's why I often struggle with giant stars in post-processing. The more focal length, the worse it gets with bad guiding.
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Brian Boyle avatar
Hi Piers,  

I think the advice above from Andy is spot on.  I would only add a couple of things I have learned, starting out in this hobby only two years ago.

1) Nothing beats good signal-to-noise.  You don't say what Bortle Sky you are observing from, but if you live in Cumbria, I would hazard a guess it is likely to be Bortle 3 and above.   I also live under Bortle 3 and I now wouldn't give Markarian's chain anything less than 3hours, even with my Hypergraph 8 at f/3.2.   [Earlier I used to dash around the sky at 1-2hour exposures of as many targets as I could fit in - but since then, I have gone back to most to get better data.]

2) Post-processing is critical.  Along with longer integration times, the biggest thing that has improved my data has been better post-processing with PixInsight.  In that regard, the EZ suite of scripts in PI are *really* helpful, particularly EZ Decon, EZ DeNoise and EZ StarReduction.  My image post-processing has undergone a huge leap forward using these techniques.  There is a fabulous couple of tutorials posted in just the last few days on Astrobin by @Patrick Cosgrove on deconvolution in PI and the EZ Decon script.    I can't recommend them highly enough, or indeed the use of the EZ suite of to do deconvolution, noise reduction and StarReduction.  Finally, I did note that, to my eye, your images had quite a green cast to them.  Have you used SCNR in PI to tone this down?  I tend not to remove 100% of the green with SCNR, but my personal preference is around the 70-90% mark, depending on the image.

Hope this helps.

Brian
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Andy Wray avatar
and here's your wonderful picture of the monkey head
Andy Wray avatar
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Piers Palmer avatar
Andy Wray:
FWIW:  this is what your Rosette nebula photo looks like with smaller stars

 
Andy Wray:
and here's your wonderful picture of the monkey head


Did I really take those?! That's one of the things I like about astrophotography...you can always go back to the original data and start again, so I shall! I'll follow your advice and follow Brian's' kind advice too. I've heard about the scripts and everything but I've barely scratched the surface with Pixinsight and generally apply a stretch and then take it into Photoshop....which is like having a Land Rover so you can park in a field once a year (a bit like Surrey then). 

One limiting factor is where I shoot. It's nice and dark where I live but may garden does have large trees around it and my house is heated with a stove, so my chimney rules out a large section of sky too. I'm probably limited to 3 hours in most directions but also by the number of clear nights. I have access to an adjacent field which has 360º views, but also has sheep and last time I imaged there they nibbled things I didn't want nibbling. I think that's easily remedied though. 

I was quite excited to see what I'd captured last night as both the Met Office and the BBC said it was going to be clear all night long. My images, however, suggest otherwise. Oh well!
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Piers Palmer avatar
Walter Leonhard Schramböck:
At first I always thought that my camera was bad, then that my telescope was bad, meanwhile I realized that bad seeing and/or bad guiding is mostly responsible for bloated stars. My tracking device is very used and has never been maintained, and my autoguiding equipment is not top-notch either. That's why I often struggle with giant stars in post-processing. The more focal length, the worse it gets with bad guiding.

That could well be the case here too - the jet stream is a frequent visitor!
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Lorenzo Dal Molin avatar
Hi,
verify if there are some frames with clouds.
If you have Pixinsight use blink and start continuous frames viewing with an interval of 0.3 seconds. In this way you can check it very well. This effect on the stars can be caused by condensation on mirror or on lens. In my M42 the shadows around stars are due to clous.
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Piers Palmer avatar
That's a great feature! I do need to spend time getting to grips with Pixinsight and with the eternal twilight just around the corner, it'll give me something to do in the summer!
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Neil Dunn avatar
Piers Palmer
Earlier in the month, I gathered data on Markarian's Chain using my FRA400. This image is the result and I'm quite disappointed as the stars are so bloated and it's generally pretty poor.

You don't say what camera you used for this image.  Is it just a case of infra red wavelengths from the stars causing your problem?  If your camera is IR sensitive then an IR/UV filter would make a huge difference.   Most of the emissions we want are well inside the IR wavelength.
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Piers Palmer avatar
Sorry - it's an ASI533MC Pro. Having had a quick look on Cloudy Nights perhaps it would help when using the FRA400! I've always put the much "nicer" stars from my R200SS down to just one of those things.

If I got something like an Astronomics L2 filter, would it matter where in my imaging train it was placed? Also, if I was using my NBZ filter, would I still want a UV/IR filter in place?

Finally…I assume my R200SS doesn't need one? It does have a Vixen Coma Corrector 3 in it but I think it's a very gentle intervention!
Neil Dunn avatar
I suspect the ASI533 will need an IR filter in front of it.   The Astronomic L2 would be a perfect IR/UV filter and it wouldn't matter where it goes in the imaging train.  The NBZ filter only passes the 500nm and 650nm narrow bands and nothing else, therefore you wouldn't need to use the IR/UV filter as well.  Infra Red starts around 700nm.

If you're shooting full colour shots with your ASI533 then you'll need to stop the IR, regardless of what scope you use it on.
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Piers Palmer avatar
Thanks for that. Seeing as I share the camera between the two scopes the less I have to change things the better, so if it will work with both, perfect. 

I can’t quite understand why so many people have their DSLRs modified to remove the IR filter thing but now I have a dedicated camera, I would benefit from adding one!
wittinobi avatar
by modifying a dslr, most people do not remove the ir-filter.
dslr filters are little more complex and after the modification there is still an ir-filter there.
Neil Dunn avatar
This is my last response.  The difference between the IR/UV filter I'm suggesting, and the IR filter in a DSLR is the DSLR's filters also attenuates the 650nm area as part of its IR reduction.  An IR/UV filter like the Astronomik L2 is "Sharp Cut-Off", that is, no attenuation at 650nm where the Ha information is.

As for the HEQ5, I use one, loaded up with an Esprit120 ED + ASI 2600 (700grams) + Focuser + Guide Scope and Camera and it is so overloaded that I had to increase the length of the counterweight bar by 40mm in order to achieve balance.

The total RMS error shown in PHD2 with this setup is always between 0.38 and 0.58.  In other words with a good polar alignment there is almost no correction being applied by PHD2.  It is an excellent light weight mount if you're prepared to, and able to put the work into it.

Good luck.
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