Misaligned Optical Path on my C11" EdgeHD?

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Bruce Donzanti avatar
I've not noticed until recently that the optical path on my C11 might be off-center (see screenshot with L filter using a flat light panel).  My NB images are fine but I noticed a darkening on one side of my BB images and the associated flats.  The primary mirror is locked down and I have the Optec FFSM system installed which has worked fine for months.  I thought it might be the prism from my OAG but that is not the case and all filters appear to be centered in the FW.  So, I am at a loss other than maybe a misalignment between the primary and secondary mirrors????  Yet- I am well collimated with sharp stars.  Has anyone with a large SCT seen this and how to address it?

Bruce



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Reg Pratt avatar
Looks like tilt. I've had flats that look like that on Edge and on RC. In my case the tilt was coming from the rotator and some from the sensor. There are a lot of things that can cause this though. Something like the Hotech collimation kit would help you verify the alignment of your mirrors and corrector plate. If the issue persists you know its coming from something in your image train.
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John Hayes avatar
I personally doubt that tilt would cause this effect.

First, tell me how well your images calibrate.

John
Bruce Donzanti avatar
Not great.  Here is an example.  Blue filter- raw stacked images, fully stretched after calibration with the same flats and dark flats and darks.  The one on the left is a stack of 10 frames and the one on the right is a stack of 110 frames.  The gradient is present in both images but most notably in the image containing 110 integrated frames.  These have not had DBE performed.   When I try DBE or the APP Light Pollution Removal Tool, the concentric rings start to appear as you see on the flats.  

John Hayes avatar
Ok Bruce.  Thanks for that.  I think that the first thing to figure out is why calibration isn't working.  When flats don't work there are two very common problems.

1) Stray light
2) Too much vignetting

From what I can see in the data you've supplied, stray light is my most immediate concern.  Remember that calibration only corrects multiplicative errors and since stray light is an additive error it won't calibrate out.  Stray light can come from:

1) Stray reflections from connector tubes or other structures within the light path,
2) Poor baffling in a two mirror system,
3) Excessive scatter from a corrector plate,
4) Light leaks in your imaging path or in your camera, or
5) Something else that I can't anticipate.

The concentric rings that you see in the flats and that appears in DBE corrected data is a dead giveaway that you have stray light reflecting from the inside of a round tube some where.  In this situation, I always recommend first pulling the camera, pointing the scope outside during the day at a bright scene, and looking backwards through the system.  Look for any small strays from shinny inner surfaces.  Those are what you have to fix.  Very flat black paint (like Mussu Black) or black flock paper will go a long way toward fixing this stuff.

I'm not completely sure why you are seeing such a big gradient but let's fix one thing at a time.  You have to be relentless to kill all the strays in you system first.  Then repeat the experiment to make sure that the bright rings are gone.  Then let's figure out what's causing that big gradient.

John
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Bruce Donzanti avatar
Thanks, John, for your advice and suggestions.  I'll start to investigate for light strays.  

Bruce
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GalacticRAVE avatar
Bruce, is it only the L filter? before you disassemble your Edge, maybe make sure that note one of the filters is a lemon. I actually just had such a case (for my R band), which looked similar. More clearly visible, if you have a faster optics to your disposal. you could rotate the filter in the wheel a bit (easier with unthreaded filters) and see whether the direction of your asymmetry changes - that was the case for my bad R filter - it got exchanged and now all is bright eyes and bushy tail

Matthias
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Steve Solon avatar
Hi Bruce,
I have an 11" Edge as well that I've had for many years. Something interesting that I noted from the past: When I first got the 11", I was using an SBIG ST-8e CCD camera with a 1.8mp chip. I had (and have) a solid ABS plastic dew shield on the front of the scope. I never saw any shading artifacts of any kind.

Five years ago, I bought a QSI-683-wsg8 CCD with an 8.4mp chip. The wider FOV definitely shows the edges of the dew shield. Flats have always taken care of this. I recently acquired a ZWO ASI 183MC-Pro camera (20mp chip), and have the same dew shield shading.

Like you, I am well-collimated. The optical train is simply a JMI motorized focuser, then a ZWO OAG, and the camera (the QSI has its own OA guider port).

My only conclusion is that the dew shield edges intrude into the light path of the larger FOV chips. As I mentioned, Flats always take care of this.

Hope this helps.
- - Steve
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Bruce Donzanti avatar
Thanks for everyone's input.  No luck so far.  Spent several hours looking into the OTA after removing the camera with a very flat panel light shining into the corrector plate and no reflections noticed.  I checked the camera, FW, and filters for anything loose and the filters do align in the FW.  I also checked for any other loose peripheral extension tubes but all seem ok.  I did a few frames last night but the result was the same with the broadband filters.  So, unless I take the scope down from up in the observatory, I'm not sure what is next to try.  Frankly, I am trying to talk myself into a 12.5" Planewave.  Very frustrating.
Hans Verheijen avatar
I have had two C 11 HD Edge telescopes. It is important that there is no tilt at the imaging train. Some parts of the imaging train can cause some artefacts.  You need good material.  I prefer a Baader Click Lock system. So that there is no tilt. Of course the collimation must be perfect. I do this with aid of some bright stars. It works very great.  After collimation the Airy Disc around the star must be perfect with a high power.  If that is done you C 11 is ready for imaging.
The air must be clear and no turbulence . Try this method.
I have been read from your message that you have problems with your dew shield.  A light object in your neighbourhood can cause refelctions in your optic path. There is a solution for this.  Make your dew shield some longer that helps very much. No lights in your neighbourhood can reach the front lens or the corrector lens of your C 11.  It also helps for refractors and other instruments.
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Bruce Donzanti avatar
Problem resolved……………………..

After a second round of examining each component of the setup, I found the major culprit. One of the push screws on the camera tilt plate was screwed down further than the other two, creating a gap less than a 0.5mm.  It was just enough to let light in.  While the purpose of a tilt plate is to use it this way to adjust for tilt, I have read others having this issue as the gasket on the ASI6200 is not thick enough to fill in the space created by using the push/pull screw pairs.  In addition, I redid the velcro strap that holds the Optec FastFocus Secondary Mirror wiring system in place as a small shiny piece of metal was exposed near the corrector plate.  

I took a series of 2-minute LRGB exposures, new flats, and dark flats and the result was near perfect images.  The concentric rings and bad obstruction are now gone.  

Thanks to all for their valuable input.  Another learning, albeit frustrating, experience.  Just when I think I have leaned and solved everything in this hobby, something new or unexpected arises!
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John Hayes avatar
Bruce,
Good stuff!  I'm really happy to hear that you found the problem.  I wish that I could get everyone to hear this message:

"You have to be relentless to kill all the strays in your system first."

As you learned, even the smallest amount of stray light can really screw things up!   Just don't ask me how I know this.  :-))))

John
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Stefan avatar
Good to hear you solved your issue. Anyway, I am puzzled: what has straylight to do with off-centric illumination? I have had the same issue in all my scope/camera combinations so far (which are quite a number, mono and OSC, reflectors and fracs). Never had a perfectly centered light cone for whatever reason.
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Bruce Donzanti avatar
Stefan:
I am puzzled: what has straylight to do with off-centric illumination?


It doesn't.  I was not sure what was causing my darkened areas and concentric ring areas that would not go away after flats were applied to the frames, and I was only suggesting/asking if the misalignment was the cause.  Thus, the question mark in my title of the post.  In fact, it had nothing to do with it.  The problem was straylight as John identified.  So, I started looking for the source.   Yes, I agree, I also have never had a perfectly aligned scope.   Your confusion was based on my initial confusion as to what was happening!    I hope this clarifies things.
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Willem Jan Drijfhout avatar
I found the major culprit. One of the push screws on the camera tilt plate was screwed down further than the other two, creating a gap less than a 0.5mm.  It was just enough to let light in.

Hi Bruce, perhaps I missed it, but what did you do to solve the issue? Did you unscrew the push screw or did you somehow tape off the gap? 
Just wondering, as the first solution would have changed tilt and gap, while the second solution would only have changed gap.
I have seen the issue you demonstrate as well in my setup, but never bothered too much, thinking it would be a <100% aligned filter. Your post suggests it might be worthwhile looking a bit further though….
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Bruce Donzanti avatar
Hi Willem

I ended up doing both.  That is, I tweaked the tilt plate to get things slightly better aligned, resulting in a smaller gap, and then used a small piece of electrical tape to ensure no light was getting through.  I originally thought it was mis-aligned filters from the FW but that was not the case.  

Bruce
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Willem Jan Drijfhout avatar
Thanks Bruce, that is good to know. So two things to look out for if it happens again.
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