Inconsistent tilt results from ASTAP despite stable FWHM values

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Georg N. Nyman avatar

I was analysing about 50 recently taken 60” subs (luminance) from one of my setups and out or curiosity checking the tilt values - strange result: All subs are within a reasonable FWHM range (2.0-2.4), but their tilt varies between almost 0 and severe.

No equipment changes, nothing changed - just acquiring one sub after another - all are 60” subs, guiding was quite fine, nothing extraordinary happened.

Have you guys experienced similar results from one sinle night? Have you got any idea why the tilt results from ASTAP are that much different?

Any idea would be highly appreciated!

Thanks and CS

Georg

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Rick Veregin avatar

Hi Georg

This could be just noise, seeing, or guiding/tracking errors—remember that a 0.5” tracking rms, means you will have much larger deviations, some will be 2 or 3X larger than your measurement. Seeing changes can be very fast and guising is set up properly to ignore chasing seeing changes, but seeing can cause very large deviations that just are not picked up on the guiding time scale.

If it is noise, does the problem go away for the stack? Every sub has random variation, I find sometimes there is too much weight put on a single sub, which can potentially be noisy, or just subject to external influences like cloud, wind and vibrations. If the events are random, they will average out to a beautiful final, result. In the end, if it is just noise the FWHM of the final image will be near the average of all the FWHM for the subs, or probably a bit better. And the final star shapes should be nice and round. If that is the case, you are good to go.

However, a 60” luminance at that aperture seems excessive just to get enough stars for this analysis, so perhaps guiding/tracking is an issue. Find a field with lots of stars and take a relatively short exposure, even a 4 second or less exposure should give you hundreds of stars in a good rich field.

I don’t see it is reasonable your tilt is changing if you are just taking successive images. If your tilt changes over the night it might indicate something is moving in your image train, but that would be over a longer period of time—unless something is very loose. That has happend to me. Thus, I doubt that your tilt could actually be changing, and the SW is pretty robust, not sure how it could give you flaky results.

Hope this helps

Rick

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John Tucker avatar

How many stars?

Georg N. Nyman avatar

John Tucker · Mar 25, 2026, 06:19 AM

How many stars?

about 2500….. widefield with QHY600C at 336mm fl

John Tucker avatar

Georg N. Nyman · Mar 25, 2026 at 08:53 AM

John Tucker · Mar 25, 2026, 06:19 AM

How many stars?

about 2500….. widefield with QHY600C at 336mm fl

I dunno. I tried to use the ASTAP data to drive my camera tilting unit optimization but it went nowhere. I started over using qualitative evaluations instead and that worked fine. I figured it was because I didn’t have enough stars.

andrea tasselli avatar
If it is real it would show in astigmatic lines. If you can't see that in the master it isn't there. ASTAP will fail to produce consistent results if the PSF isn't well sampled.
Georg N. Nyman avatar

andrea tasselli · Mar 25, 2026, 09:20 AM

If it is real it would show in astigmatic lines. If you can't see that in the master it isn't there. ASTAP will fail to produce consistent results if the PSF isn't well sampled.

no astigmatism in single subs and not in the master. I presume, it is ASTAP which creates sometimes strange results…

andrea tasselli avatar
With that focal length you end up with an image scale of 2.3"/px so your average FWHM is less than a pixel wide, assuming that's even possible. If true, or even close to it, then there is no way ASTAP can give you meaningful answers and NOT by its own fault.
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar

Are the 2” FWHM better than the 2.4” with respect to tilt measurements? Focus error (even a few microns) will compound with field curvature and remnant tilt, causing higher reported tilt. Have you analyzed a focus run, or are you only looking at single frame tilt? If you want to know your tilt, you need to capture and analyze a full focus run. Single frame tilt diagrams are useful, but if you dont understand the relationship between focus, tilt, field curvature, collimation, backspacing error, etc…. they will likely lead you on a wild goose chase. Definitely do the full focus bracket analysis. This is what Hocus Focus does, and the Hyperbolic Curve analysis feature in ASTAP.

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Rick Krejci avatar

I’ve found ASTAP isn't reliable for largely oversampled images with tight stars. It gets way too sensitive and unstable. I’ve compared aberration inspector results from 2 images that had very different ASTAP tilt results and they looked almost identical. Nina’s more robust method (detecting focus point at various areas) is much more reliable, but is time consuming

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