Reaching Out to John Hayes

Freestar8nJohn HayesArun Handrea tasselliSonnyE
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GregsAstrobin avatar

I’d like to see if I can get John Hayes to join a thread that I am involved in on Cloudy Nights. The thread is in regard to EdgeHD telescopes and eventually led to some discussion about dew control. Another contributor to the thread and I both referenced John’s Astro Imaging Channel presentation on “The Physics of Dew Prevention”. One of the other participants insists that one should never put heat in front of the telescope. I listened to the presentation again so I would be fully up to speed for the discussion. The one thing that seems to be missing in the presentation why the low level of heat from a heated dew shield doesn’t cause image degradation. I believe the premise of the participant in question is that any heat in front of the scope will cause degradation. I have suggested to the participant that he view the presentation, but I don’t think he has done so.

I’d like to be able to explain why the low level of heat will not cause image degradation, but I can’t. Perhaps John could join the thread and explain why it is not a problem. Here is a link to the thread:

EdgeHD and Imaging - Experienced Deep Sky Imaging - Cloudy Nights

Greg

Salvatore Iovene avatar

Hi Greg,

AstroBin has a private messaging function. If you find John's gallery, you'll see a Message button there.

Let me know if you need clearer instructions.

Salvatore

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Aaron Dalton avatar

John, we've been trying to reach you about your scopes extended dew shield!

Noah Tingey avatar

If I’m remembering correctly, John does briefly address this in the video when discussing the ideal amount of power that should be sent to the dew heater. I believe he said it should be just enough to prevent dew, as too much heat will degrade image quality like the people on CN are saying.

That said, I don’t see any reason why having heat in front of your front element would be any worse than having heat behind your front element… especially if you need much much more heat to get rid of dew when the dew heater strap is behind your front element (as John showed would be necessary in his video).

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Arun H avatar
I believe the premise of the participant in question is that any heat in front of the scope will cause degradation. I have suggested to the participant that he view the presentation, but I don’t think he has done so.

Recognize that the only way to prevent dew formation on the front element is to heat its outer surface above the dew point.

This is accomplished most efficiently by heating the dew shield just enough so radiation heat exchange between the shield and the front surface of the lens takes it above the dew point.

Now consider what happens were you to place the dew heater behind the front element. You would have to supply enough heat to either:
  1. Use heat conduction to heat a larger section of the metal body of the scope and have that heat transmit to the dew shield so it can radiatively heat exchange with the front element and raise it above the dew point
  2. Directly conduct through an insulator (glass) and heat up the front element though conduction.


Both solutions require more heat than simply heating the dew shield directly.

So it isn't that heating the dew shield won't cause problems. It is that it will cause far fewer problems than any alternative method because those methods require more heat and are much less efficient.

I will add - if someone does not want to watch a well researched and useful video on the topic and still holds to an opinion - having John enter into the debate seems unlikely to change their mind. I personally prefer to understand and follow the physics rather than spend time convincing someone that does not want to be convinced!
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John Hayes avatar

I’ve been out all day, which is why I’ve been so slow to respond. Someone else PM’d me about this so, I’ve seen that discussion over on CN. I no longer participate on CN so I won’t post anything directly to that thread.

The protagonist in that CN discussion claims to understand physics but he has also appeared to refuse to watch the presentation that I presented on TAIC. In that presentation, I gave very clear reasons why the method that he is promoting is not the best way to fight dew. Yes, what he is advocating will work (as I said in the presentation), but it requires a lot more power than what is needed to simply raise the temperature of the front surface to counter radiative losses to the sky. Furthermore, I showed some thermal plumes in an interferometer beam to emphasize why you want to minimize the amount of heat that goes to any heaters no matter where they are positioned. Remember that in a steady state, power in equals power out. So, if you are dumping 92W into the back of a C14 just to heat up the front surface by 6C, that’s how much power is being dissipated into the surrounding air—and if the scope is pointed straight up, that thermal plume is going to get into the light path. I showed that it takes about 60 times LESS power to simply heat a dew shield than to heat the tube for a C14. That calculation included a 3C margin so it might be a bit optimistic, but it’s not off by more than a factor of two! And..when you put less heat into the system, it is possible to generate laminar air flow, which will have a far smaller potential impact on image quality than turbulent flow. I’ve shown the calculations for a C14 so which is better? ~1W-2W on the dew shield (for an aspect ratio of 1.5) or 92W on the OTA tube?

For those of you involved in that CN discussion, please go back and review slide number 4. In my experience, the protagonist in that CN discussion is the most active food fighter on that site. He will NEVER agree with what I have to say and he won’t provide any data or coherent calculations to back up his position so, my advice is to let it go and re-watch the parts of my presentation that you might not remember or that you might not have understood completely. I’m happy to answer questions about it. What I’m not willing to do is to get into another meaningless food fight over on CN over simple principles that shouldn’t be at all controversial .

John

Freestar8n avatar

Gee - I think my ears are burning. I’m happy to have technical discussions but I prefer to avoid ad hominems. This thread is a strong mixture of both dysfunction and uncoolness, and Greg could have simply addressed me directly in a PM on CN, rather than take the CN thread off topic and then pursue it here in public.

The first thing I would point out regarding the CN discussion is that a person is asking for general advice from users, and the goal is to respond with advice people consider helpful. If a side issue comes up that gets belabored, it detracts from the thread and takes it off topic. So, once I gave my advice it’s perfectly fine for others to give theirs, and it is also perfectly fine if people disagree. But the point of the thread isn’t to change my mind; it’s to help the original poster. Unfortunately the damage was done and the thread was sidetracked, whereas it would not have been if people simply gave their own advice.

I don’t know Greg or his background, but it’s clear he isn’t aware I’m quite familiar with John’s take on dew prevention, and I have already provided feedback in the past. So when he said, “Please view the John Hayes presentation mentioned above. It will set you straight. Sorry, it's just physics.” That tells me a lot. Do I need to explain why it is quite presumptuous to think that just because one person finds a youtube compelling and truthful, it will automatically be received by others the same way? “You believe they landed on the moon? Watch this video and it will set you straight!” You see, it’s ridiculous to watch a technical youtube, declare it to be 100% true, and expect anyone else to agree, or they are wrong.

The topic of dew prevention and fans and insulation are somewhat unique in astronomy because they don’t translate well from professional work since observatories tend to be very well climate controlled, or they just shut down when dew is forecast. So you end up with amateurs having very different takes on what is the best way to do things. The opinions are very strong and varied, particularly recently with insulation on the tube and fans in the front of the telescope, with no heating at all. Lots of ideas out there, and youtubes.

Astrobin is primarily an image hosting site and the forum tends to be fairly low bandwidth and more social than technical. And the topics tend to be more about post-processing than imaging per se. So I don’t tend to post here. But given this very strange and dysfunctional public thread I will aim to start a separate one on dew prevention in the future. And people are most welcome to disagree, but please keep it technical, avoid ad hominems, and avoid appeal to authority.

Cheers,
Frank

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andrea tasselli avatar
"Sic Dixit" arguments are very poor arguments.
Arun H avatar
The reason people find John's presentation(s) credible is not because of any appeal to authority, but because they are based on science.

The dew prevention video relies on principles of conduction, convection, and radiation that may easily be verified by referring to well reputed textbooks - as an example, the classic book "Transport Phenomena", by Bird, Stewart, and Lightfoot which forms the cornerstone of many university courses even to this day and which was the textbook used when I learned heat transfer. I'd expect someone who has a contrary opinion to base that on verifiable science - university textbooks or peer reviewed papers. So, I personally look forward with bated breath to Frank's promised follow up. Perhaps there is new science that has been developed in the 30 years since I took the course, and simple and efficient ways to transmit heat across surfaces from one point to another without heating intermediate points or areas.

Also, for "social" forum, I'd say there is more science being referred to in this Astrobin thread than the CN thread.
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andrea tasselli avatar
What I would argue about is that to argue about anything you need to get your home-work done. In that context that means doing a LOT of calculations to establish whether the arguments pros or cons are right or wrong or most likely the degree each opposing assertion is right or wrong. As a professionally involved with all things thermal that apparently simple question got a lot of catches. Obviously you can measure things but that isn't as easy or inexpensive as compared to analytical/numerical methods.
GregsAstrobin avatar

Salvatore,

I apologize if I have violated the proper social behavior here. All I wanted to do is get a better understanding of why a heated dew shield would not cause image degradation. John did provide that answer. Thanks John.

Greg

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Salvatore Iovene avatar

GregsAstrobin · Feb 25, 2026 at 03:05 PM

Salvatore,

I apologize if I have violated the proper social behavior here. All I wanted to do is get a better understanding of why a heated dew shield would not cause image degradation. John did provide that answer. Thanks John.

Greg

No problem, I was just letting you know in case you didn’t know that feature existed.

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John Hayes avatar

andrea tasselli · Feb 25, 2026 at 01:21 PM

What I would argue about is that to argue about anything you need to get your home-work done. In that context that means doing a LOT of calculations to establish whether the arguments pros or cons are right or wrong or most likely the degree each opposing assertion is right or wrong. As a professionally involved with all things thermal that apparently simple question got a lot of catches. Obviously you can measure things but that isn't as easy or inexpensive as compared to analytical/numerical methods.

I couldn’t agree more. That’s why my presentation is packed with the results from a lot of detailed calculations. I was very careful to present the underlying physics along with numbers for specific examples in order to short circuit the food fight that I’ve experienced in the past whenever this subject comes up. There is nothing even remotely controversial about the physics of thermodynamics and heat exchange so what I’ve presented should not be generating any sort of disagreement. Of course, if someone can show that I’ve made an error in one of my calculations, that’s different and I’ll be happy to quickly admit it and correct it. Still, there are a lot of very smart folks in this hobby and I suspected that my results might draw some scrutiny so, I was pretty careful to double check the equations and results that I presented. As I said right up front in my presentation, there are a lot of ways to prevent dew, but just because something works, it doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily the best way to do things. Some methods are definitely better than others…and I was careful to show why.

For anyone who hasn’t seen the presentation, you can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wp2bkz85-o&t=2233s

John

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SonnyE avatar

I am no longer with cloudy nights. I got banned during a 2-week vacation in Japan without any explanation or recourse. I can’t even retrieve my images from my profile there.

I do use a “dew heater” with both my telescope via the dew shield, and on my guide scope via its homemade dew shield. Both are Refractors.

No problem with either telescope. Just for the record. No dew problems with either regardless of the RA or DEC over the night. So I call that a win.

Removed

Freestar8n avatar

Gee again! I already said I would do a follow up in a separate thread, and I will aim to do it in coming days. I don’t normally critique youtubes but I will for this one if you really want me to. The thing is, I already know from past discussions what some of the key points are, and they are even being repeated here:

1) It is a low power approach. I don’t care about power, I care about not introducing turbulence.

2) It avoids anything getting hot. A good setup should not require anything getting hot.

3) It is more efficient. I don’t care about efficiency, I care about not introducing turbulence.

The standard dew strap combined with dew shield has been popular and effective for many years, both for deep sky and planetary work. Recently things have changed and some users swear by 1) Heavy insulation and a dew shield with no heat or power 2) A low power fan stirring air in the dew shield in front of the corrector (no heat, low power) , and 3), the approach touted here, which is to apply heat to the dew shield to replace heat lost to the sky.

In the context of the CN thread, I would want to see evidence with EdgeHD in a dew-prone environment where dew is indeed prevented, and at the same time the wavefront is not greatly impacted. This wouldn’t show well in deep sky work because it is inherently a factor at the diffraction limit, especially if AI sharpening has been applied.

So that is the key evidence I would look for in dew prevention for EdgeHD. The chimney effect I’m concerned about is what I would want to see confirmed as not a factor, but it has little to do with the physics of the radation balance. It has to do with warm air flowing upward in the dew shield, which need not happen when the corrector is kept close to ambient and nothing in the OTA is well above ambient. It’s an approach I already consider proven over many years by many people with lots of results.

So stay tuned!

Frank

Jim Bishop avatar

John Hayes · Feb 25, 2026, 04:07 PM

I couldn’t agree more. That’s why my presentation is packed with the results from a lot of detailed calculations. I was very careful to present the underlying physics along with numbers for specific examples in order to short circuit the food fight that I’ve experienced in the past whenever this subject comes up. There is nothing even remotely controversial about the physics of thermodynamics and heat exchange so what I’ve presented should not be generating any sort of disagreement. Of course, if someone can show that I’ve made an error in one of my calculations, that’s different and I’ll be happy to quickly admit it and correct it. Still, there are a lot of very smart folks in this hobby and I suspected that my results might draw some scrutiny so, I was pretty careful to double check the equations and results that I presented. As I said right up front in my presentation, there are a lot of ways to prevent dew, but just because something works, it doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily the best way to do things. Some methods are definitely better than others…and I was careful to show why.

For anyone who hasn’t seen the presentation, you can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wp2bkz85-o&t=2233s

John

When you made your post two days ago I took the time to watch your original video on TAIC. My EdgeHD had some issues with dew last summer and I was hopeful you had a solution. The math of your presentation eluded me (I am a data scientist by training) but I have smart friends, two of which are thermo dynamics people. I showed them your presentation and they got back to me telling me you were spot on. Turns out, I was an F- in my approach to dew control (which explains a lot). It will be a while until I can test your approach, but I have taken the time to re-configure my scope to your approach. I am also considering the fan-based approach (raspberry pi and Arduinos are my jam) but until I can test the dew straps I already have I am going to put that path on hold.

In your fan-based approach, what fans, accessories, or processes are you using to mitigate vibration? The further you are from the fulcrum/pivot point, the stronger the moment of motion is going to be. Did you find this was worth worrying about? Sure, you don’t want a monster fan on the nose of your scope but are the smaller 12v cooling fans stable enough to not be a concern? Thanks!

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andrea tasselli avatar
John Hayes:
I couldn’t agree more. That’s why my presentation is packed with the results from a lot of detailed calculations. I was very careful to present the underlying physics along with numbers for specific examples in order to short circuit the food fight that I’ve experienced in the past whenever this subject comes up. There is nothing even remotely controversial about the physics of thermodynamics and heat exchange so what I’ve presented should not be generating any sort of disagreement. Of course, if someone can show that I’ve made an error in one of my calculations, that’s different and I’ll be happy to quickly admit it and correct it. Still, there are a lot of very smart folks in this hobby and I suspected that my results might draw some scrutiny so, I was pretty careful to double check the equations and results that I presented. As I said right up front in my presentation, there are a lot of ways to prevent dew, but just because something works, it doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily the best way to do things. Some methods are definitely better than others…and I was careful to show why.

For anyone who hasn’t seen the presentation, you can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wp2bkz85-o&t=2233s

John


I hate watching things on YT but somehow managed to go through most of it. There are assumptions and simplifications along the way (e.g., slide 48 & 49) which I might find objectionable and I can't see a strong case for a C8/C9.25 to have the sort of dew shield John is proposing.  But as I said before to counter (or not!) the points made in the presentation I'll have to do a bit more home-work here. It'll take some time.
John Hayes avatar

Jim Bishop · Feb 26, 2026 at 04:22 PM

When you made your post two days ago I took the time to watch your original video on TAIC. My EdgeHD had some issues with dew last summer and I was hopeful you had a solution. The math of your presentation eluded me (I am a data scientist by training) but I have smart friends, two of which are thermo dynamics people. I showed them your presentation and they got back to me telling me you were spot on. Turns out, I was an F- in my approach to dew control (which explains a lot). It will be a while until I can test your approach, but I have taken the time to re-configure my scope to your approach. I am also considering the fan-based approach (raspberry pi and Arduinos are my jam) but until I can test the dew straps I already have I am going to put that path on hold.

In your fan-based approach, what fans, accessories, or processes are you using to mitigate vibration? The further you are from the fulcrum/pivot point, the stronger the moment of motion is going to be. Did you find this was worth worrying about? Sure, you don’t want a monster fan on the nose of your scope but are the smaller 12v cooling fans stable enough to not be a concern? Thanks!

Hi Jim,

I’m glad that you took the time to check it out. For a lot of locations where the TDPS doesn’t go really low, a simple, passive dew shield works just fine (that’ why I gave it an A-). Adding just a little heat to the shield will make it work under even under the worst conditions. Remember that you only need to raise its temperature by just 3C.

My fan suggestion is based on two things: First, that’s all that my ASA600 uses to keep the primary clear of condensation and it works really well. Those fans also break up surface convection and significantly improve the image quality. Second, we know that convection should work pretty well just based on how convective heat exchange works. I never tried it on my C14s; however, there is a guy here on AB who has built exactly what I pictured on slide #51 in the far right diagram and he tells me that it works really well. The trick is to use fairly small, high quality fans that are well balanced and you shouldn’t have any trouble with vibration. I don’t know how he arranged the fans but I suggested two with inward air flow and two with outward airflow to set up a uniform flow across the surface. I’ll see if I can contact him and get him to tell us first hand more about how it worked out.

John

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John Hayes avatar

andrea tasselli · Feb 26, 2026 at 07:12 PM

I hate watching things on YT but somehow managed to go through most of it. There are assumptions and simplifications along the way (e.g., slide 48 & 49) which I might find objectionable and I can't see a strong case for a C8/C9.25 to have the sort of dew shield John is proposing.  But as I said before to counter (or not!) the points made in the presentation I'll have to do a bit more home-work here. It'll take some time.

Yeah, I understand that. It helps to turn the speed up to 1.24x or 1.5x to pick up the pace and I do that myself all the time.

I want to point out that I’m not advocating a single solution in that presentation. For a lot of folks, a simple passive dew shield will work fine. Heating the shield definitely makes the shield more effective when the conditions warrant it. The big take away is that you don’t have to heat it very much to make it work well. You only need +3C to make it work all the way down to a TDPS of zero. (Notice that the aperture size dropped out of that result.) The other big take away is that you want to minimize how much heat you dump into the system to prevent condensation. That’s why a passive dew shield is so good—if the conditions allow it. Even C8/C9.25 scopes can get dew and/or frost so you need to do something to minimize that possibility whether it’s fans, a passive shield, or a heated shield.

John

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SonnyE avatar

John Hayes · Feb 26, 2026, 07:47 PM

andrea tasselli · Feb 26, 2026 at 07:12 PM

I hate watching things on YT but somehow managed to go through most of it. There are assumptions and simplifications along the way (e.g., slide 48 & 49) which I might find objectionable and I can't see a strong case for a C8/C9.25 to have the sort of dew shield John is proposing.  But as I said before to counter (or not!) the points made in the presentation I'll have to do a bit more home-work here. It'll take some time.

Yeah, I understand that. It helps to turn the speed up to 1.24x or 1.5x to pick up the pace and I do that myself all the time.

I want to point out that I’m not advocating a single solution in that presentation. For a lot of folks, a simple passive dew shield will work fine. Heating the shield definitely makes the shield more effective when the conditions warrant it. The big take away is that you don’t have to heat it very much to make it work well. You only need +3C to make it work all the way down to a TDPS of zero. (Notice that the aperture size dropped out of that result.) The other big take away is that you want to minimize how much heat you dump into the system to prevent condensation. That’s why a passive dew shield is so good—if the conditions allow it. Even C8/C9.25 scopes can get dew and/or frost so you need to do something to minimize that possibility whether it’s fans, a passive shield, or a heated shield.

John

Thank You for that explanation John.

Being one who thinks outside the box, because I never got in the box… I chose to get a Terrarium heater for my mounts laptop about 5+ years ago to help it with some cold nights here. I mounted it (sticky backed) to a quarter sheet aluminum baking pan and inverted the pan so my laptop sits on the pans bottom.

I set the supplied thermostat to 60°F so it comes on and gently heats the pan, which warms the laptop. About 2 years ago I had a dew problem with my guide scope and lost the nights imaging. I made a removeable dew shield for that scope and ordered two more heating pads with simple dial thermostats on their cords. I applied one to each dew shield and used an extension cord to connect the scope heaters.

When the main temperature controller turns on, the 3 pads warm the areas they are applied to, they are just warm to the touch and provide just enough heat to keep my equipment dry and gently warmed. The pads are made to be water resistant and shockproof.

Total cost was around $50 for the whole shebang. My laptop never shuts off from the cold, and my lenses stay clear and dew free. When you compare my solution to the whorehouse prices for other dew prevention systems/methods, mine really shines.

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Freestar8n avatar

OK - I took a look at this video and at the same time took a look at all the other (thousands) of videos related to dew prevention out there.

The talk was very well organized and presented.

I thought this presentation was basically fine except for a number of simplifications and assumptions here and there, plus a tendency to model something and not validate it by actual measurement, with the corrector plate temp drop being an example. I don’t view that as trivial to model given all the other factors involved. But the value wasn’t critical to the talk.

My main point would be that 3C above ambient may not seem like much, but it still represents heat being introduced in the chimney through which the scope views the sky. And this scenario requires it to be happening, i.e. it is a fundamental issue essential to its function. If you have seen schlieren images of a slightly warm mirror, tilted, you will know that even a small amount above ambient will cause air currents near the surface.

In contrast, applying heat somehow directly to the corrector and secondary does not fundamentally have any deleterious effects. It can be done improperly and not work, but if done well and with the right controller, there is no fundamental reason it can’t prevent dew while not hurting the view. And it allows you to use a much shorter dew shield and experience less wind buffeting. (Shorter dew shields will expose much more sky while also cutting down the solid angle of the dew shield). So the talk does acknowledge that other methods can work fine, albeit less efficiently, which is great. But at the same time there is an assumption that 3 degrees above ambient with a telescope tilted 30 degrees from zenith won’t impact the seeing. And I disagree with that, and that has been my concern all along.

I can recommend a compromise approach that has has heaters on the dew shield only providing enough power to keep the dew shield at ambient, as it is likely some degrees below ambient without power. That is based on the principles of the talk, and it is something I can envision adding on as a way to supplement the dew strap just below the corrector. It may even improve seeing by not having a dew shield below ambient. But I would avoid having it get even a degree above ambient to prevent tube currents.

As for fans in the front, or inside the telescope: If that can work without impacting the view, you could avoid heat altogether. But I don’t know of any professional observatory where turbulent air flow is ever encouraged. If it works within or in front of the scope without impacting the seeing, I don’t know why it wouldn’t be used professionally.

The CDK24 relies on the following:

“The CDK24 is equipped with cooling fans and a Delta-T ready system to achieve thermal equilibrium swiftly. These features help to minimize air turbulence within the tube, thus reducing image distortion and maintaining consistent imaging quality.”

I.e. it relies on applied heat within the tescope and makes sure to avoid any turbulence.

If you read up on dome seeing, I don’t know of any example where turbulence is intentionally generated near or in front of the scope. So unless I find compelling evidence otherwise, fans are off for me.

In summary, it’s a good talk and for people who don’t already know the basics of dew formation it should be helpful. But I still don’t want anything intentionally above ambient in front of the scope. Heaters on the dew shield tightly held to ambient could be a good idea, though, along with the usual supplemental heat near the corrector.

Frank

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andrea tasselli avatar
As for fans in the front, or inside the telescope: If that can work without impacting the view, you could avoid heat altogether. But I don’t know of any professional observatory where turbulent air flow is ever encouraged. If it works within or in front of the scope without impacting the seeing, I don’t know why it wouldn’t be used professionally.


Wind can be there too and in most situations it is and relied upon to prevent significant boundary layer from forming on the primary mirror surface. Nor you can avoid it in most amateur situations, so in those cases, depending on the strength of the wind you might not need a dew shield at all, except you might to avoid parasitic light interferences from nearby sources (e.g., porch lights and such). So there you are you get air flow (turbulent or otherwise) whether you like it or not.  Aside from that you don't have tube currents in an enclosed space in thermal equilibrium. Plus how on Earth do you propose to keep a given body at ambient temperature without feedback mechanisms?
Scott Badger avatar

Freestar8n · Feb 27, 2026, 03:13 AM

As for fans in the front, or inside the telescope: If that can work without impacting the view, you could avoid heat altogether. But I don’t know of any professional observatory where turbulent air flow is ever encouraged. If it works within or in front of the scope without impacting the seeing, I don’t know why it wouldn’t be used professionally.

Doesn’t adding heat also cause turbulence? Generally speaking, my experience is that thermal mixing is the primary driver of seeing and air turbulence more of an exacerbator.

I adopted John’s idea of fans built into the dew shield and, without any heat, dew is prevented 99% of the time (I live in northern New England, so plenty of humidity). It’s only when humidity is virtually 100% (all but fog conditions) that dew has formed at the end of the night. I use a Pegasus controller, but the variable power output is designed for heaters and doesn’t work with the fans, so they’re either on or off, and don’t come on until the power level exceeds 90%. A custom controller that can provide variable power to the fans would lessen the air flow and be a little more ahead of the curve dew prevention-wise.

As for air turbulence in front of the corrector plate (I have a C9.25 edge), I did some very blunt testing - 10s subs (no guiding) with and without the fans running - and saw no adverse effect, but with my seeing, 2.65” at the time which is about as good as it gets, my testing probably only shows no gross effects from the fans.

On the other hand, being about 8 miles down-wind of (probably) the windiest spot on earth, I have lots of wind and on John’s suggestion I cut the dew shield length down by about half, so guiding performance is significantly improved in windy conditions.

Cheers,
Scott

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John Hayes avatar

andrea tasselli · Feb 27, 2026 at 08:00 AM

As for fans in the front, or inside the telescope: If that can work without impacting the view, you could avoid heat altogether. But I don’t know of any professional observatory where turbulent air flow is ever encouraged. If it works within or in front of the scope without impacting the seeing, I don’t know why it wouldn’t be used professionally.



Wind can be there too and in most situations it is and relied upon to prevent significant boundary layer from forming on the primary mirror surface. Nor you can avoid it in most amateur situations, so in those cases, depending on the strength of the wind you might not need a dew shield at all, except you might to avoid parasitic light interferences from nearby sources (e.g., porch lights and such). So there you are you get air flow (turbulent or otherwise) whether you like it or not.  Aside from that you don't have tube currents in an enclosed space in thermal equilibrium. Plus how on Earth do you propose to keep a given body at ambient temperature without feedback mechanisms?

I just want to add a few points here:

1) The physics involved here doesn’t care whether the telescope is used by someone who is being paid to use it or not. “Professional telescopes” range in size from about 100 mm up to 10-m (and soon to 39-m). Large telescopes are usually (but not always) in domes that act as dew shields and those domes incorporated all kinds of thermal management systems to manage something called “dome seeing”. The telescopes themselves also include a lot of fans to manage boundary layer effects. We can get into the details of what they do at large observatories but that’s not relevant to most of us who are using telescopes that are smaller than about 1-m. That’s why my presentation is focused on how to prevent dew in small telescopes that are used out in the open.

2) The notion that any air motion or thermal differential is always detrimental to image quality in all cases is incorrect. Air is moving all the time in the form of wind, tube currents, local, low-level seeing, and boundary layer effects on and around the optics (i.e. baffle plumes, etc.). Radiation exchange with the sky drives temperature differences whether you like it or not. I contend that the less power you dump into heaters the better it is but what really counts is the effect on image quality—and I’ll come back to that.

3) Remember that the effect of turbulence in the pupil is different than the effect of turbulence at a distance. At a distance, the primary effect is tilt in the wavefront. That causes image motion in the focal plane, which blurs the image during a long exposure. That sort of image blur is often larger than what you get from random minor wavefront distortion caused by turbulence in the pupil. It’s also important to understand that turbulent flow is worse than laminar flow. That’s why you can put a telescope in an aircraft and still get high quality imaging—even with a huge amount of airflow. Small temperature differences tend to produce flow that stays laminar for a greater distance than large temperature differences.

4) In my ASA600, the fans that blow air across the primary are REQUIRED to get good image quality! How do I know? Because I measured it…and you can do the same. There is no need to argue about it. Simply turn off your dew prevention system (fans and/or heaters) and take 20× 1-2-second exposures of an open cluster that is near the zenith. Then turn on your dew prevention system, whatever it is, and let it stabilize. Then take 20× 1-2-second exposures of the same cluster and measure the FWHM values for both sets of data. Looking straight up is probably the worst case scenario but if you don’t believe that, then repeat the experiment at say 45 degrees attitude. If you see a difference between the two sets of measurements, you’ve got a problem and you can then try to isolate it by adjusting temperatures, fan speeds, or turning things on and off. In my experience, I’m pretty sure that you’ll find that running your dew shield at +3C relative to ambient won’t make any measurable difference in your results. And if it does, be sure that that’s the only thing that could be causing the difference. It’s best to make this sort of measurement under the best possible seeing but in any case, it will tell you if you’ll see a difference under conditions similar to when you ran the experiment.

5) The point of my presentation was not to say that there is one right way to fight dew! There are many ways to do it; but, some are better than others and having a good understanding of the underlying physics is what enables you to better evaluate how to best attack the problem. So pick one and then go make some measurements to see how well it works. If dumping 100W into the tube works and you can’t see any difference in image quality, then keep doing what you are doing!

John

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Freestar8n avatar

As I described, there are currently several novel ways to control dew. At the same time, there are standard practices adopted over many decades to have a telescope operate as well as possible. Key to the approach is 1) thermal equilibration with the environment, 2) Good dome seeing and 3) Minimal air turbulence in front of the scope.

The use of fans within or in front of the telescope, and the heating of surfaces in front of the telescope, both violate these core principles. In contrast, if you are able to apply heat effectively by direct or indirect means to the corrector plate of an sct, in principle you will avoid dew and not violate any of these core principles.

SCT’s are special since they are closed systems and some warmth within the tube will collect at the top since it is pointed upwards. There is no reason to expect it to be turbulent, and there are decades of good results, both deep sky and planetary, with that approach.

If 3C sounds ok, then what about 5C? Or 10C? If you can heat the dew shield and not have it impact the view, do you really need multiple dew straps at 3C, or can you have one at 10C? Do you suddenly get concerned it will impact the view? For me, and based on professional guidance, I would be concerned about 1C.

If there is some wind possible at times, many people would want to use a much shorter dew shield. That would be no problem if you can tolerate a warm dew shield, so just make it shorter and heat it more.

The core principle involved is simply to have a large solid angle a bit above ambient to compensate for a small solid angle well below ambient. So why wouldn’t that scale to large observatories? Current professional practice for dew avoidance is very simple and efficient and anyone can do it: If dew might form, shut everything down. But they already spend tons of money on environmental control to keep everything equilibrated with the outside. Why wouldn’t they just cover the interior surface of the dome with a slightly warm material, if it doesn’t impact the performance? It would add many nights of observing.

A key challenge with these recent approaches is that it is very hard to tell if the view is impacted at all because you would need diffraction-limited evidence. For example, if a telescope is not well equilibrated the view will be terrible, but turning on internal stirring fans can greatly clean things up. So you can conclude it will help if the telescope isn’t equilibrated, but it doesn’t tell you that it hurts the view when the telescope is equilibrated.

A nice thing about the fan approach is that you don’t need heat, and there is no real need for careful control and feedback based on conditions and measurement. It’s based on the assumption that high power stirring of the air will prevent dew and improve the seeing with the stirring. But I would be concerned about the turbulent region where the stirred air mixes with the atmosphere, which will always be happening.

For deep sky everything is more relaxed and you may not need to worry about a small bloat from something like this. In which case I would lean towards a short dew shield and a high power fan with no heat.

But for me, as I have said multiple times, I don’t want anything above ambient in front of the scope because it violates a core principle of a good setup. But I look forward to results people may come up with in the future that provide convincing evidence the view is not impacted. And any professional adoption of these approaches would be interesting to see.

Frank

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