Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
I'm new to using dual-narrowband filters in combination with a OSC camera, and I'm faced with the following problem.
During one of the last sessions, I used an Antlia ALP-T 3nm Ha-OIII filter with a ToupTek ATR2600C camera.
The filter is installed in the drawer, the backfocus is 55mm. I was focusing using EAF running the HocusPosus plugin in NINA.
There were no problems with focusing, and the graph looked correct. But when I stacked the result of shooting for two nights and extracted the Ha-channel, it turned out that it was out of focus. The stars were bloated. At the same time, everything was fine in OIII. Problem was only in Ha.
At first I thought it was the consequences of debayering, but then I realized it wasn't normal.
I want to figure out what the reason is - bad filter, incorrect focusing, maybe it's the glass in front of the camera sensor (I have AR-glass), or do I need to add another 0.5 - 1mm spacers to achieve correct backfocus?
I am attaching an example of what happened and asking for help to solve this problem.

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AstroÅmazer avatar
What exposure time are you using with the filter? For a 3nm filter, try 10s. Looks like the EAF is focusing on green channel and not getting it right - maybe HFD calculation not accurate due to low exposure times. What do the individual Blue/Red channels look like?
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Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
If you mean the exposure time for autofocus, I have 10 seconds.

CFA0:

CFA1:

CFA2:

CFA3:

Bayer pattern - RGGB (in FITS header), but really apparently GRGB
andrea tasselli avatar
If you are using a relatively fast ed refractor you're out of luck and you got to compromise with manual focusing. Shooting at f/7 I never had issues and so with lenses. This said I find it puzzling it gives that amount of defocus. It shouldn't. Unless the refractor is really poorly corrected.
Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
I use small refractor f/4.5 - Sharpstar 61. 
If you're right, then it's only suitable for monochrome imaging…
andrea tasselli avatar
Alexey Korobeynikov:
I use small refractor f/4.5 - Sharpstar 61. 
If you're right, then it's only suitable for monochrome imaging...

*Yes, but it really shouldn't. The issue is, or would be, with the refractor. I'm using this sort of filter on a f/2.8 lens of similar FL and there isn't any issue, nor there should be.
NeilM avatar
Alexey

I use a Redcat 71 (F4.9) with an L-ultimate dual band filter and a ZWO auto-focuser and both of my extracted Ha and Oiii images are always sharp and in focus.  As far as I know, the Antila filter should be at least as good or better than the L-Ultimate.  I agree with Andrea, it looks like there is something else going on here because the focus is very bad in the Ha…  very strange!
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AstroÅmazer avatar
Even green looks slightly out of focus to me. Blue looks in best focus. I have use 4nm Altair filters with my Askar SQA70 at 4.8 and and WO GT81 IV at 4.72 with reducer and never seen anything like this.

Edit:

CFA0- G
CFA1- R
CFA2- B
CFA3- G
danieldh206 avatar
What is your step size for the focuser? Once, when I had my focus step size set to 'small,' I encountered a similar issue. The focus points never got far enough out of focus to find the smallest HFR.
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Gareth Jones avatar
I recently bought a  Player One Ares C-Pro (IMX 533 sensor) and a Player one filter housing.  The camera has a back focus of 55mm but I was surprised to see that Player One recommended 56mm if a filter was used and they supplied an appropriate spacer.  A quick check on=line showed that there is a lot of information to confirm this so I set my optics up with a 56mm back focus and it woks perfectly with an Optolong L-Pro or an L-eNhance filter.  Maybe you could give this a go.
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danieldh206 avatar
I have the Ares-M and the 56mm back focus is correct. You divide the width of the filter by 3 and then add this to 55mm.  https://youtu.be/5J654T0UpBc?t=479
Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
Autofocus step size 50 and it works fine for me. 
Also I think that if the problem was in the back focus, it would manifest itself in all channels and to a greater extent in the corners of the frame.
That's why Andrea's idea seemed interesting to me. 
And here's another reason:

I have two lenses for my telescope because after the first tests on a monochrome camera with ZWO filters after buying the scope , I got halos around bright stars in the blue channel. 
Knowing that this is typical for early versions of edph II, I wrote to the Sharpstar support and they sent me a new lens (not for free).
After installing the lens and testing it, I realized that the problem remained. After that, I switched to Antlia filters and everything fell into place.
I left the "new" lens on the scope and continued to use it in combination with the monochrome camera.
But yesterday's discussions prompted me to check the filter offset settings in NINA (for monochrome camera), and it turned out that the red channel was shifted much more than the others.
Typically I use my telescope with a monochrome camera with IMX533 sensor. And I just didn't pay attention to it before.

It was a clear night yesterday and I replaced the old lens and and I ran tests on a monochrome camera. I set up the offset filter again and the result surprised me.
There's a good chance that the "new" lens wasn't suitable for the telescope, and I'm looking forward to testing old lens with a color camera.

"new" lens with issues:


old lens:
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ErykCoa avatar
Hi Alexey.

I've had similar issue toy yours and also suspected that autofocus struggled because of the dual band filter. It turned out, that the problem was in a focuser sag. After each exposure stars got softer and softer. I also did not notice this before stacking. I recommend checking whether this is the case.

For me only a simple fix was needed. I've set  backlash compensation in NINA to 0/150 from 150/150  (IN/OUT). It helped to "lock" the focuser with EAF motor and it works perfectly ever since.
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Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
Hi Alexey.

I've had similar issue toy yours and also suspected that autofocus struggled because of the dual band filter. It turned out, that the problem was in a focuser sag. After each exposure stars got softer and softer. I also did not notice this before stacking. I recommend checking whether this is the case.

For me only a simple fix was needed. I've set  backlash compensation in NINA to 0/150 from 150/150  (IN/OUT). It helped to "lock" the focuser with EAF motor and it works perfectly ever since.

I use overshoot compensation algorithm with 0/250.
danieldh206 avatar
Alexey Korobeynikov:
Autofocus step size 50 and it works fine for me. 
Also I think that if the problem was in the back focus, it would manifest itself in all channels and to a greater extent in the corners of the frame.
That's why Andrea's idea seemed interesting to me. 
And here's another reason:

I have two lenses for my telescope because after the first tests on a monochrome camera with ZWO filters after buying the scope , I got halos around bright stars in the blue channel. 
Knowing that this is typical for early versions of edph II, I wrote to the Sharpstar support and they sent me a new lens (not for free).
After installing the lens and testing it, I realized that the problem remained. After that, I switched to Antlia filters and everything fell into place.
I left the "new" lens on the scope and continued to use it in combination with the monochrome camera.
But yesterday's discussions prompted me to check the filter offset settings in NINA (for monochrome camera), and it turned out that the red channel was shifted much more than the others.
Typically I use my telescope with a monochrome camera with IMX533 sensor. And I just didn't pay attention to it before.

It was a clear night yesterday and I replaced the old lens and and I ran tests on a monochrome camera. I set up the offset filter again and the result surprised me.
There's a good chance that the "new" lens wasn't suitable for the telescope, and I'm looking forward to testing old lens with a color camera.

"new" lens with issues:


old lens:

How flat is the focus curve? Depending on the focuser model and how it is connected to the scope, a step size of 50 is pretty small.
Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
My focuser - ZWO EAF.

Usually the left side of the curve is more gentle than the right.
Alexey Korobeynikov:
Autofocus step size 50 and it works fine for me. 
Also I think that if the problem was in the back focus, it would manifest itself in all channels and to a greater extent in the corners of the frame.
That's why Andrea's idea seemed interesting to me. 
And here's another reason:

I have two lenses for my telescope because after the first tests on a monochrome camera with ZWO filters after buying the scope , I got halos around bright stars in the blue channel. 
Knowing that this is typical for early versions of edph II, I wrote to the Sharpstar support and they sent me a new lens (not for free).
After installing the lens and testing it, I realized that the problem remained. After that, I switched to Antlia filters and everything fell into place.
I left the "new" lens on the scope and continued to use it in combination with the monochrome camera.
But yesterday's discussions prompted me to check the filter offset settings in NINA (for monochrome camera), and it turned out that the red channel was shifted much more than the others.
Typically I use my telescope with a monochrome camera with IMX533 sensor. And I just didn't pay attention to it before.

It was a clear night yesterday and I replaced the old lens and and I ran tests on a monochrome camera. I set up the offset filter again and the result surprised me.
There's a good chance that the "new" lens wasn't suitable for the telescope, and I'm looking forward to testing old lens with a color camera.

"new" lens with issues:


old lens:

How flat is the focus curve? Depending on the focuser model and how it is connected to the scope, a step size of 50 is pretty small.

danieldh206 avatar
Alexey Korobeynikov:
edph II,

If your EAF is connected to the fine focus knob, this divides the EAF's 2.812 μm step size by the fine focuser reduction amount. I couldn't find the exact reduction amount, but it appears to be 2.812/5, 2.812/7, or 2.812/10. This will result in a small step size. Try some focus runs with the step size set at 200.  If the V is too steep, reduce the step size; if the V is too flat, raise the number. 

The angle of the V-curve should be about the same on each side after a few focus runs. The fact that your curve is usually more gentle on one side or the V-curve is not similar between focus runs, leading me to suspect that the fine focus is slipping. 

Once I stopped attaching my autofocus to the fine focus, my focus runs became uniform, and focus offsets worked correctly. 

If the fine focus is slipping, filter offsets will not work correctly because the focuser will not consistently move to the correct offset position. 

It is pretty easy to tighten the fine focus if it is slipping, but even better to attach the EAF to the fast focus. But when you attach the EAF to the fast focus, make sure you set the end points correctly.
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Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
Alexey Korobeynikov:
edph II,

If your EAF is connected to the fine focus knob, this divides the EAF's 2.812 μm step size by the fine focuser reduction amount. I couldn't find the exact reduction amount, but it appears to be 2.812/5, 2.812/7, or 2.812/10. This will result in a small step size. Try some focus runs with the step size set at 200.  If the V is too steep, reduce the step size; if the V is too flat, raise the number. 

The angle of the V-curve should be about the same on each side after a few focus runs. The fact that your curve is usually more gentle on one side or the V-curve is not similar between focus runs, leading me to suspect that the fine focus is slipping. 

Once I stopped attaching my autofocus to the fine focus, my focus runs became uniform, and focus offsets worked correctly. 

If the fine focus is slipping, filter offsets will not work correctly because the focuser will not consistently move to the correct offset position. 

It is pretty easy to tighten the fine focus if it is slipping, but even better to attach the EAF to the fast focus. But when you attach the EAF to the fast focus, make sure you set the end points correctly.

Thanks for the recommendations, 
My EAF is connected to the focuser on the side of the fast focus knob.
I'll try to play with the focus step values when I get the chance, maybe next weekend.
Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
But when you attach the EAF to the fast focus, make sure you set the end points correctly.

I didn't quite understand about the endpoints
is this referring to the allowable EAF movement? (65,000)
danieldh206 avatar
Alexey Korobeynikov:
But when you attach the EAF to the fast focus, make sure you set the end points correctly.

I didn't quite understand about the endpoints
is this referring to the allowable EAF movement? (65,000)

Yes, the allowable movement. You want to ensure that the permissible movement is set so that the EAF stops before causing any damage.
AstroÅmazer avatar
I had my EAF step size at 50 initially but noticed that the autofocus point was sometimes to the left of the valley of the V curve, visually. I use ASIair, so no hocus focus. I reduced my step size by 5 till I settled at 35. Seems to be finding focus near the valley of the V curve more consistently. Also, your new lens is probably not color corrected as well as the old one. Have you noticed color fringing around bright stars in UV/IR cut subs?
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Arne Biermans avatar
I use a dual band filter and a OSC camera with a redcat 91. So the setup is similar'ish. Using an Oasis Focuser Rose auto focuser (which incidentally I think is superior to the ZWO EAF). 
Technically it is always a tradeoff. You can only ever be perfectly focussed at one wavelength but these wavelengths you (we) use do not differ enough to be a problem. NINA uses the overall star profile to determine if you are in focus or not. If it is in focus at Ha it should be in focus at OIII (with both focus points being ever so slightly off from perfect for both wavelengths.) I'd be suspicious of the filter itself. Also, I am using 150 focus steps with 150 backlash overshoot in one direction. Have you tried a different filter?
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Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
AstroÅmazer:
Also, your new lens is probably not color corrected as well as the old one. Have you noticed color fringing around bright stars in UV/IR cut subs?


In the images from the OSC camera combined with the "new" lens the red stars, in my opinion, looked strange, flat in color and very saturated. I think it was also caused by a problem with a poorly corrected lens. It's just that this problem was more pronounced on shots using a dual-narrowband filter.
Alexey Korobeynikov avatar
So finally, I ran a test using a color camera combined with an old lens.
It seems that the problem with focusing the red colors has gone away, so the problem was really with the poorly corrected lens.
Below you can see autofocus curve and Vega star through Bahtinov mask.

UV/IR cut:


Antlia- ALP-T:


Vega:




Also I collected data on the North America nebula for 1 hour under a full moon using the Antlia dual-band filter.
I was encouraged by the result:



This is calibrated by dark, bias, flat and auto stretched.
It looks like the problem has been solved.
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