DSO Astrophotography limitations from city

Dimitris KavallieratosEuripidesandrea tassellidkamenTorben van Hees
37 replies1.2k views
Dimitris Kavallieratos avatar
Hello everyone!

This is a question that I think I know the answer but I want to still be sure...

What are the DSO limitations created by heavy LP (B8/9) & no LP filters,beyond the classic bright objects? Is it for example possible to photograph nebulae (except from Orion/Horsehead) and fainter than the andromeda galaxies, without filters and maybe large integration times?

I just posted my first ever (kind of) succesfull DSOimage of M31 from my city center with full moon and I was surprised by the results! 

What can I expect with my current equipment (SA 2i & NikonD5300 w/ 200m lens) as a limitation?

Thanks in advance!
Euripides avatar
Hello Dimitris, 

In fact it is the exact opposite. When we are under heavy LP ( Thessaloniki here, so B8 - B9) we need shorter exposure times otherwise we will have always saturated (fully white, "burned") stars.

The best option we have is the combination of a cooled mono camera with narrowband filters. With that we will have the best possible results from our cities. 

If you go for a broadband target  - for example M31 that you've already shot - you can use a "light" light pollution filter to help you a bit. For example here is my last year's effort for M31 https://www.astrobin.com/hhkdkd/ with my DSLR. 

Personally I think I will not "loose" my time again and shot broadband from my home. I could definitely use this precious time for narrowband imaging with way better results. 


Euripides
Helpful Concise
Chase Newtson avatar
Yes, it's possible.  But you will need to be patient, and build up that integration time.  There are plenty of larger, decently bright nebulae that can be grabbed out of light polluted skies.  As for galaxies, with only 200mm focal length, a vast majority will appear quite small.  Just remember to keep your sub exposures from becoming too saturated, as the added light pollution will add to your overall exposure.  I will also highly recommend at least getting a decent light pollution filter, as that will help block out some of the unwanted light.  

I live in a bortle 7, so not quite as bad, but still not the greatest.  I am still very much an amateur at this hobby myself as I have only been imaging for 6 months.  But I am learning that there is plenty out there!

Hope you pursue those targets!

-Chase
Helpful Concise Supportive
dkamen avatar
Hi Dimitris,

Light pollution is a signal (typically having the form of a gradient because things are more polluted lower down the sky and less pollulted the higher you get) + the associated noise which is the square root of the signal (on average).

Let's say for a given image you exposed for 20 seconds and have 30,000/65535 average light pollution, this will be accompanied by sqrt(30,000) = 171/65535 noise. You needed to expose so much because you are capturing something so faint that it emits a signal of 10/65535 during the exposure. If you wanted to capture something 10 times fainter, you are out of luck as you cannot expose 10X20 = 200 seconds, light pollution would give you a completely white sub. So this is the first limitation: you cannot expose as much as you'd like and some targets are simply beyond your reach.  

So you have settled for 20 seconds and have a 30,000/65535 light pollution plus noise. You can subtract the light pollution relatively easily with a gradient removal tool. Especially if it the subject is darker, actually. Come to think of it, at 200mm your image covers a significant part of the sky meaning the gradients can be a tad too wild and even mess with your flat field, but overall getting rid of them is doable. However, the light pollution noise remains. In our example, any signal fainter than 171/65535 is completely hidden and above that you lose dynamic range: there is no way to tell if a pixel is 540 or 480 if the noise is 170, essentially your "step" is 170 and it is like having a 9-bit camera (not exactly, but close enough). In a nutshell, imaging under heavy light pollution means the dark stuff is invisible -which is to be expected- and the less dark stuff is  posterized -which is a little unexpected but makes perfect sense.  

It follows that you need to reduce noise (improve your SNR in scientific lingo) and the only way to do that is by integrating more subs. Noise is effectively divided by the square root of the number of subs. If you take 100 subs like the one in our example, noise effectively becomes 17 (171 divided by 10 which is the squre root of 100).  Now stuff as faint as 34/65535 is visible and your dynamic range is 10 bits. To get the full dynamic range the same equipment would give you in a perfectly dark site you need more than 20  thousand subs which is not impossible but has many practical limitations. Planetary imagers can do it because their subs are milliseconds. For a DSO, you need around 20 seconds exposure stin kseftila therefore your 20,000 subs take 100 hours = multiple nights with the target traversing significantly different parts of the sky with everything that entails.  For example you will have different seeing, this is bound to cost you more in detail, and your light pollution signal will not be a simple gradient but a higher degree 2D polynomial type of thing which can be very, very difficult to tackle.

Putting it all together:
  • Individual subs cannot/should not be too long because the sky saturates them (you are "sky limited"), so really faint stuff is out of the question. You can capture Andromeda for example but definitely not the Hα clouds surrounding it. You can capture the Crescent Nebula but it will be a Crescent, not oval-shaped like it looks in a dark location or in narrowband. And so on.
  • Subs will have less faint detail and look more posterized than equivalent subs from a dark site.
  • You can compensate by integrating more subs, but only up to a point. Your results will never be as  good as the dark site, particularly for the darker stuff because returns are diminished and even become negative after the first few thousand subs.


Cheers, 
Dimitris
Helpful Insightful
Roberto Marinoni avatar
Shooting DSO from an heavy light polluted sky without specific filters and with a so short focal lenght (200mm tele lens) is very hard.

Yes, you can record the Andromeda galaxy like you did and you could do the same with some other bright objects like Pleiades or Orion Nebula for example, but if you go for other fainter objects probably you will be very soon disappointed by the poor results.

If instead you use a narrow band filter for sure you can have good results also from the city, but as already said you should do anyway many subs in order to achieve a good SNR.
In addition, if your reflex is not “modified“ (= removal of the original IR cut filter in front of the sensor and replacement with a special filter) it will be quite blind to the Ha wavelenght and so you will ne not able anyway to have a good result on emission nebula even if you use a LP filter.
So in my opinion you should at least modify the reflex and use a LP filter.
Helpful
Dimitris Kavallieratos avatar
Euripides:
Hello Dimitris, 

In fact it is the exact opposite. When we are under heavy LP ( Thessaloniki here, so B8 - B9) we need shorter exposure times otherwise we will have always saturated (fully white, "burned") stars.

The best option we have is the combination of a cooled mono camera with narrowband filters. With that we will have the best possible results from our cities. 

If you go for a broadband target  - for example M31 that you've already shot - you can use a "light" light pollution filter to help you a bit. For example here is my last year's effort for M31 https://www.astrobin.com/hhkdkd/ with my DSLR. 

Personally I think I will not "loose" my time again and shot broadband from my home. I could definitely use this precious time for narrowband imaging with way better results. 


Euripides

Great photo Euripides! My bet is with 200ISO and exposures under 1min , with M31 I did 40 sec ones..Very nice image! Guess Iam going to need some filtering at a point I see...Thanks you for the reply!
Hi Dimitris,

Light pollution is a signal (typically having the form of a gradient because things are more polluted lower down the sky and less pollulted the higher you get) + the associated noise which is the square root of the signal (on average).

Let's say for a given image you exposed for 20 seconds and have 30,000/65535 average light pollution, this will be accompanied by sqrt(30,000) = 171/65535 noise. You needed to expose so much because you are capturing something so faint that it emits a signal of 10/65535 during the exposure. If you wanted to capture something 10 times fainter, you are out of luck as you cannot expose 10X20 = 200 seconds, light pollution would give you a completely white sub. So this is the first limitation: you cannot expose as much as you'd like and some targets are simply beyond your reach.  

So you have settled for 20 seconds and have a 30,000/65535 light pollution plus noise. You can subtract the light pollution relatively easily with a gradient removal tool. Especially if it the subject is darker, actually. Come to think of it, at 200mm your image covers a significant part of the sky meaning the gradients can be a tad too wild and even mess with your flat field, but overall getting rid of them is doable. However, the light pollution noise remains. In our example, any signal fainter than 171/65535 is completely hidden and above that you lose dynamic range: there is no way to tell if a pixel is 540 or 480 if the noise is 170, essentially your "step" is 170 and it is like having a 9-bit camera (not exactly, but close enough). In a nutshell, imaging under heavy light pollution means the dark stuff is invisible -which is to be expected- and the less dark stuff is  posterized -which is a little unexpected but makes perfect sense.  

It follows that you need to reduce noise (improve your SNR in scientific lingo) and the only way to do that is by integrating more subs. Noise is effectively divided by the square root of the number of subs. If you take 100 subs like the one in our example, noise effectively becomes 17 (171 divided by 10 which is the squre root of 100).  Now stuff as faint as 34/65535 is visible and your dynamic range is 10 bits. To get the full dynamic range the same equipment would give you in a perfectly dark site you need more than 20  thousand subs which is not impossible but has many practical limitations. Planetary imagers can do it because their subs are milliseconds. For a DSO, you need around 20 seconds exposure stin kseftila therefore your 20,000 subs take 100 hours = multiple nights with the target traversing significantly different parts of the sky with everything that entails.  For example you will have different seeing, this is bound to cost you more in detail, and your light pollution signal will not be a simple gradient but a higher degree 2D polynomial type of thing which can be very, very difficult to tackle.

Putting it all together:
  • Individual subs cannot/should not be too long because the sky saturates them (you are "sky limited"), so really faint stuff is out of the question. You can capture Andromeda for example but definitely not the Hα clouds surrounding it. You can capture the Crescent Nebula but it will be a Crescent, not oval-shaped like it looks in a dark location or in narrowband. And so on.
  • Subs will have less faint detail and look more posterized than equivalent subs from a dark site.
  • You can compensate by integrating more subs, but only up to a point. Your results will never be as  good as the dark site, particularly for the darker stuff because returns are diminished and even become negative after the first few thousand subs.


Cheers, 
Dimitris

Thanks for the educated reply Dimitris! I guess then Iam limited to bright & big DSOs...My limits with my camera is 1min at 200ISO with the histogram just over 1/2 which I believe is managable. But 100 hours in your example is just impossible for me and my laptop capabilities  

I understand that even with LP filters I can get to a certain point with DSO AP...

Thanks again!
Roberto Marinoni:
If instead you use a narrow band filter for sure you can have good results also from the city, but as already said you should do anyway many subs in order to achieve a good SNR.

Thanks Roberto!Can you recommend a good LP filter for my NikonD5300? Also what are the options if I want to modify it? Can it be done by myself?
Euripides avatar
Euripides:
Hello Dimitris, 

In fact it is the exact opposite. When we are under heavy LP ( Thessaloniki here, so B8 - B9) we need shorter exposure times otherwise we will have always saturated (fully white, "burned") stars.

The best option we have is the combination of a cooled mono camera with narrowband filters. With that we will have the best possible results from our cities. 

If you go for a broadband target  - for example M31 that you've already shot - you can use a "light" light pollution filter to help you a bit. For example here is my last year's effort for M31 https://www.astrobin.com/hhkdkd/ with my DSLR. 

Personally I think I will not "loose" my time again and shot broadband from my home. I could definitely use this precious time for narrowband imaging with way better results. 


Euripides

Great photo Euripides! My bet is with 200ISO and exposures under 1min , with M31 I did 40 sec ones..Very nice image! Guess Iam going to need some filtering at a point I see...Thanks you for the reply!
Hi Dimitris,

Light pollution is a signal (typically having the form of a gradient because things are more polluted lower down the sky and less pollulted the higher you get) + the associated noise which is the square root of the signal (on average).

Let's say for a given image you exposed for 20 seconds and have 30,000/65535 average light pollution, this will be accompanied by sqrt(30,000) = 171/65535 noise. You needed to expose so much because you are capturing something so faint that it emits a signal of 10/65535 during the exposure. If you wanted to capture something 10 times fainter, you are out of luck as you cannot expose 10X20 = 200 seconds, light pollution would give you a completely white sub. So this is the first limitation: you cannot expose as much as you'd like and some targets are simply beyond your reach.  

So you have settled for 20 seconds and have a 30,000/65535 light pollution plus noise. You can subtract the light pollution relatively easily with a gradient removal tool. Especially if it the subject is darker, actually. Come to think of it, at 200mm your image covers a significant part of the sky meaning the gradients can be a tad too wild and even mess with your flat field, but overall getting rid of them is doable. However, the light pollution noise remains. In our example, any signal fainter than 171/65535 is completely hidden and above that you lose dynamic range: there is no way to tell if a pixel is 540 or 480 if the noise is 170, essentially your "step" is 170 and it is like having a 9-bit camera (not exactly, but close enough). In a nutshell, imaging under heavy light pollution means the dark stuff is invisible -which is to be expected- and the less dark stuff is  posterized -which is a little unexpected but makes perfect sense.  

It follows that you need to reduce noise (improve your SNR in scientific lingo) and the only way to do that is by integrating more subs. Noise is effectively divided by the square root of the number of subs. If you take 100 subs like the one in our example, noise effectively becomes 17 (171 divided by 10 which is the squre root of 100).  Now stuff as faint as 34/65535 is visible and your dynamic range is 10 bits. To get the full dynamic range the same equipment would give you in a perfectly dark site you need more than 20  thousand subs which is not impossible but has many practical limitations. Planetary imagers can do it because their subs are milliseconds. For a DSO, you need around 20 seconds exposure stin kseftila therefore your 20,000 subs take 100 hours = multiple nights with the target traversing significantly different parts of the sky with everything that entails.  For example you will have different seeing, this is bound to cost you more in detail, and your light pollution signal will not be a simple gradient but a higher degree 2D polynomial type of thing which can be very, very difficult to tackle.

Putting it all together:
  • Individual subs cannot/should not be too long because the sky saturates them (you are "sky limited"), so really faint stuff is out of the question. You can capture Andromeda for example but definitely not the Hα clouds surrounding it. You can capture the Crescent Nebula but it will be a Crescent, not oval-shaped like it looks in a dark location or in narrowband. And so on.
  • Subs will have less faint detail and look more posterized than equivalent subs from a dark site.
  • You can compensate by integrating more subs, but only up to a point. Your results will never be as  good as the dark site, particularly for the darker stuff because returns are diminished and even become negative after the first few thousand subs.


Cheers, 
Dimitris

Thanks for the educated reply Dimitris! I guess then Iam limited to bright & big DSOs...My limits with my camera is 1min at 200ISO with the histogram just over 1/2 which I believe is managable. But 100 hours in your example is just impossible for me and my laptop capabilities  

I understand that even with LP filters I can get to a certain point with DSO AP...

Thanks again!
Roberto Marinoni:
If instead you use a narrow band filter for sure you can have good results also from the city, but as already said you should do anyway many subs in order to achieve a good SNR.

Thanks Roberto!Can you recommend a good LP filter for my NikonD5300? Also what are the options if I want to modify it? Can it be done by myself?

About the modification, I wanna add that it would definitely provide you more details on Ha data but think about it well. (Been there, done that..)

Here you can see a DSLR modded image vs my Cooled camera image https://www.astrobin.com/6hvdjr/0/

Think about it twice just to be sure that you will not go for a cooled camera purchase just a few months later. You can save those 150-200e for the mod and add it to you budget for a cooled dedicated camera.  Buy once -  cry once 👍
Concise Supportive
andrea tasselli avatar
Euripides:
Can you recommend a good LP filter for my NikonD5300? Also what are the options if I want to modify it? Can it be done by myself?


There are none as ready-made clip-on filters (sadly). You could use a 2" filter if your front lens diameter isn't that much bigger (with adapter), in which case I'd recommend a L-PRO for broadband and a L-eNhance for narrowband, both from Optolong. As for modding the camera, not easy stuff. Requires practice and skill in both electronics and in handling optics (filters in front of the sensor that need to be replaced). I'd recommend avoiding unless you're experienced in hacking electronics. There must be tutorials around in the web, look them up. Note that there wouldn't be any point in buying any narrowband filter if you don't have a modded camera.
Helpful Concise
Rick Evans avatar
Hi Dimitris,

Robin Glover, developer of SharpCap 4.0 has an excellent write-up in the Sharp Cap forums on estimating the appropriate exposure for a given sky darkness. And, yes Euripides is on the mark that more light polluted skies call for shorter sub-exposures because noise from bright sky photons build up a lot faster than in dark skies. A formula for the  sub-exposure is given in the 8th part of the write-up.  It's an eye opener. For my typical setup, Celestron 8, Starizona NightOwl, ASI294MC Pro at my regular  it's best I use sub exposures no more than 30 to 60s and acquire over a desired total time.

Rick
Helpful
Euripides avatar
In addition to that you can see his speech here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RH93UvP358

Smart histogram & Sensor analysis in Sharpcap are remarkable tools


Euripides
Rick Evans avatar
Euripides:
In addition to that you can see his speech here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RH93UvP358

Smart histogram & Sensor analysis in Sharpcap are remarkable tools


Euripides

Yup. I neglected to mention it was the talk that brought me to the forum.  Good post. The talk is definitely worth watching. 

Rick
kuechlew avatar
Hello all,

in this context I'd like to recommend the excellent book "Astrophotography on the go" by Joseph Ashley. While the main focus is on small lightweight and portable rigs, he addresses a chapter to dealing with light polution. The book is certainly aimed at the beginner level but I found a lot of great advice in it.

Best regards
Wolfgang
Well Written Concise
Michael Feigenbaum avatar
Lots of great information here.  I will say though, there is a lot you can do even in an LP environnment.  @Chris Sullivan does, in my humble opinion, truly remarkable work in Bortle 7-8 skies.  Take a look at his gallery if you get a moment...
Dimitris Kavallieratos avatar
Euripides:
In addition to that you can see his speech here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RH93UvP358

Smart histogram & Sensor analysis in Sharpcap are remarkable tools


Euripides

Watched through that ,the guy did that in one breath! Very good and quite technical speech I will try to apply the formulas for my case. As a rule of thumb though,if the histogram of a single frame is about in the middle ,would that be OK for the saturation and the quality of the image?

Also can anyone recommend me good objects to go after the classics M42/M45? Considering my focal/exposure limitations...

Thanks again everyone.
dkamen avatar
Rosette
M8 and M20
Deneb Region
Sadr Region
Antares/Rho Ophiuchi Region
M24 and environs
Veil Nebula (but don't expect too much)
M33 (it will require considerably more integration time than M31)
Alnitak Region (Horsehead and friends)
M13
andrea tasselli avatar
M16 and environs
M17 and environs
Die Launische Diva avatar
Nice target suggestions so far, but keep in mind some of those won't rise high enough in the Athenian sky, making them more prone to light pollution. One such example is the Antares Region.

I'll propose again the Double Cluster in Perseus, and of course, the California nebula. Also, the Heart and Soul (albeit a bit difficult since it lies in a region dense in stars) and the Pacman (just for the fun of it)!
Well Written Helpful Insightful Respectful Engaging Supportive
dkamen avatar
Die Launische Diva:
Nice target suggestions so far, but keep in mind some of those won't rise high enough in the Athenian sky, making them more prone to light pollution. One such example is the Antares Region.


It's not so bad, we are a relatively southern location (bear in mind that this is a veeeeeery old photo when I was a PI newb. I would probably be able to squeeze a much better result out of it today).



Will never look as nice as Cygnus which reaches the zenith, though and admittedly I am in the NE, so my southern horizon is not as light polluted as the west. 

And, like I said, it will never look as good as the result from a dark location (with less than a quarter of total exposure, actually):



Cheers,
D.
Sid Frede avatar
All shot in Bortle 8+ sky.   ASI 533MC P with narrowband filters.   L-Extreme, L-Pro.    Now imaging mono LRGB and Narrowband with ASI 2600MM P mono. 
Narrowband is new to me and I am experimenting with it.   OSC with NB filters work great.  Just need to accumulate more time with filters.   Typical capture is 6-10 hours.
Torben van Hees avatar
Thanks, @dkamen , for the explanation. I‘ve been wondering about those posterization effects in some of my backgrounds, and you provided the explanation (and the remedy: more subs). Hadn‘t thought that through, so thank you.
Well Written Respectful
Chris Sullivan avatar
Anything above your noise floor is within reach. Even from Bortle 8/9 skies, you'd be surprised by all that you can capture. The caveat is: You can't shoot as if you're shooting under dark skies. People with access to dark skies can shoot a target in a night and process it the next day. I've seen jaw-dropping shots of Messier objects on Astrobin that were only a couple hours of integration. But those of us who shoot under bright skies can't do that. You need to give broadband targets hours and hours of integration - 10-15 minimum and ideally at least 25-30 depending on the speed of your optics and how bright your skies truly are. Think of each image as a project you're going to spend the next month on. But almost everything is within reach. I've only been truly defeated by light pollution a handful of times and I've gone after some of the dimmest targets out there. Check out Broadband under Bortle 7/8/9.
Well Written Helpful Insightful Engaging Supportive
Dimitris Kavallieratos avatar
Chris Sullivan:
Anything above your noise floor is within reach. Even from Bortle 8/9 skies, you'd be surprised by all that you can capture. The caveat is: You can't shoot as if you're shooting under dark skies. People with access to dark skies can shoot a target in a night and process it the next day. I've seen jaw-dropping shots of Messier objects on Astrobin that were only a couple hours of integration. But those of us who shoot under bright skies can't do that. You need to give broadband targets hours and hours of integration - 10-15 minimum and ideally at least 25-30 depending on the speed of your optics and how bright your skies truly are. Think of each image as a project you're going to spend the next month on. But almost everything is within reach. I've only been truly defeated by light pollution a handful of times and I've gone after some of the dimmest targets out there. Check out Broadband under Bortle 7/8/9.

OK I get it...Multiple days projects it is! Very nice library, thanks for your feedback  
Can it be done without LP filters ? I own a Nikon camera with lens and I do not want to invest in filters/guiding right now and if yes to what extend? For example can I capture M33 or North American Nebula with just my current setup in Bortle 8? Also when I shoot multiple days , do I need to take calibration frames every time I go out?
andrea tasselli avatar
M33 is tough going but doable. NGC7000 is extremely difficult if not impossible because you have an unmodifed camera. If you had a modified camera then NGC7000 would be relatively easy. As for calibration frames: darks and biases needs to be done just once. Flats always.
Helpful Concise
Euripides avatar
Honestly I would say...no. Do not try and loose your valuable clear-sky time for anything else than galaxies and broadband targets with your current setup. You will spend your time and efforts and the results will not be hmmm...not good :-)

We use at least 20-30+ hours with narrowband filters and dedicated astrophotography cameras to achieve a decent result. 

Choose those targets, practice and find your equipment's limits. Then plan and buy the required gear. It's not a secret that astrophotography is a deep black rabbit hole, so be prepare to spend.


PS. Yes, we have to take calibration frames every single time. You have a DSLR, so you do not have stable temperature. For that reason you should capture darks every time too.

PS2. Here are 8hours of NGC7000 with a filter. With an unmodified camera, you will not be even close :-(  https://www.astrobin.com/tucu8g/
Helpful
Dimitris Kavallieratos avatar
andrea tasselli:
M33 is tough going but doable. NGC7000 is extremely difficult if not impossible because you have an unmodifed camera. If you had a modified camera then NGC7000 would be relatively easy. As for calibration frames: darks and biases needs to be done just once. Flats always.


I will go for that, waiting for Orion to rise higher then! Thank you Andrea.
Euripides:
Honestly I would say...no. Do not try and loose your valuable clear-sky time for anything else than galaxies and broadband targets with your current setup. You will spend your time and efforts and the results will not be hmmm...not good :-)

We use at least 20-30+ hours with narrowband filters and dedicated astrophotography cameras to achieve a decent result. 

Choose those targets, practice and find your equipment's limits. Then plan and buy the required gear. It's not a secret that astrophotography is a deep black rabbit hole, so be prepare to spend.


PS. Yes, we have to take calibration frames every single time. You have a DSLR, so you do not have stable temperature. For that reason you should capture darks every time too.

PS2. Here are 8hours of NGC7000 with a filter. With an unmodified camera, you will not be even close :-(  https://www.astrobin.com/tucu8g/

OK then
Just to clarify when we are referring to broadband target, I believe we mean galaxies and star clusters, right? I guess I can shoot the brightest of brightest nebulae like Orion also.