Critique Requested: My Latest Image - Forums

Topic starter

25 days ago

Hello Astro Community,

A little background story: Recently, I posted an image which I am pretty satisfied compared to my previous ones. I had much hope that it will be pleasing to others and as a sign it might be elected for Top Pick or Nominated image on Astrobin. To my Suprise, it did not get enough votes from submitters and removed from the list after one day. I am not saying it was Image of the day, but not getting even nominated was not a good feeling. (many other my imaged were not picked as well, but this is the first time it made me sad and disappointed).

I am providing link to my image and also original tiff files (two versions) and looking for any feedback on why it was/is not pleasing to others.
Rasalgethi Plus Nine Stars - AstroBin
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M2OTct3sB78mfCYhq2JYTkOpGaDIPUAy/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iE9aCrVrrKApa2kgdG1XzP-f0fALH1UT/view?usp=sharing

Another note, is that while I don't think solely because of capturing new area should be the reason for being voted positively, I think if not many things are wrong with the image (technically) then having it voted positively can encourage us to go and look for new stuff in the sky. I searched Astrobin for the same are and could only find one image uploaded by Adam Block which was picked as Image of the Day. Just curious what big difference is between the two images one being seen so positively and the other dismissed first day.

Thank you all in advance for your comments and feedback.

Die Launische Diva

25 days ago

My first reaction when I saw your image was about the diffraction spikes, which seemed peculiar to me. Then I read your description, and honestly, I don't understand why you felt the need to 'borrow' diffraction spikes from another telescope. Regarding the fallacy of comparing recent images with past award-winning images, you might want to read the first part of my post as an answer to a similar question here: https://www.astrobin.com/forum/post/199514/

Well Written

Tony Gondola

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

This is old ground but you have no idea of what there other images you were up against that day were like. The judges have a hard job and look at a LOT of images. They are only human and are prone to biases and moods, just like the rest of us. It's quite possible that if you submitted on a different day, you might have gotten a different result.

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

Die Launische Diva:
My first reaction when I saw your image was about the diffraction spikes, which seemed peculiar to me. Then I read your description, and honestly, I don't understand why you felt the need to 'borrow' diffraction spikes from another telescope. Regarding the fallacy of comparing recent images with past award-winning images, you might want to read the first part of my post as an answer to a similar question here: https://www.astrobin.com/forum/post/199514/

Thanks Die, the reason for adding spikes was to be more focused than stars. As I said, in my mind this image was about the stars. But, overall, I agree with you and thats the reason I included both versions. About your comment about award-winning images, I don't see it as the goal or reason to post, but at the same time I use it for two things:
1 -What is the general idea about a good picture, good process,.... so I can keep improving myself.
2- How fair is Astrobin as the main platform for us.

With this, from one I am looking to learn, and reason behind this request to give me feedback. Now I know some people prefer no spikes! and about the second item there is no other way than comparing. If X uploads a bad photo and gets promoted and same picture by Y wont, this is bad and not fair one one side, and also it will give me FALSE understanding about a good picture.

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

Tony Gondola:
This is old ground but you have no idea of what there other images you were up against that day were like. The judges have a hard job and look at a LOT of images. They are only human and are prone to biases and moods, just like the rest of us. It's quite possible that if you submitted on a different day, you might have gotten a different result.

Thank you very much Tony. I 100% agree with everyone being a person and different timing could result in different results. However, I am not competing for IOTD with the other one, I am comparing not nominated image with IOTD. Simply cannot understand what makes the first IOTD and the second not worthy. Obvious question, is the person uploading the image a part of image quality? it should not, but seems to be the case?

Dan Kearl

25 days ago

Farshad Mohammadi:
Thank you very much Tony. I 100% agree with everyone being a person and different timing could result in different results. However, I am not competing for IOTD with the other one, I am comparing not nominated image with IOTD. Simply cannot understand what makes the first IOTD and the second not worthy. Obvious question, is the person uploading the image a part of image quality? it should not, but seems to be the case?

I think you have a fine image and I see you have won IOTD before.... I think implying the system is rigged is not exactly the way to pursue your next one.
You won before , was the system rigged then?

Tony Gondola

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

Farshad Mohammadi:
Tony Gondola:
This is old ground but you have no idea of what there other images you were up against that day were like. The judges have a hard job and look at a LOT of images. They are only human and are prone to biases and moods, just like the rest of us. It's quite possible that if you submitted on a different day, you might have gotten a different result.

Thank you very much Tony. I 100% agree with everyone being a person and different timing could result in different results. However, I am not competing for IOTD with the other one, I am comparing not nominated image with IOTD. Simply cannot understand what makes the first IOTD and the second not worthy. Obvious question, is the person uploading the image a part of image quality? it should not, but seems to be the case?

As I said, judges are human, they might not even be aware that they are doing it. Imagine you're a judge and the images you see over and over again form a particular imager are uniformly excellent. You know that it's not supposed to matter but it can have an effect.

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

Dan Kearl:
Farshad Mohammadi:
Thank you very much Tony. I 100% agree with everyone being a person and different timing could result in different results. However, I am not competing for IOTD with the other one, I am comparing not nominated image with IOTD. Simply cannot understand what makes the first IOTD and the second not worthy. Obvious question, is the person uploading the image a part of image quality? it should not, but seems to be the case?

I think you have a fine image and I see you have won IOTD before.... I think implying the system is rigged is not exactly the way to pursue your next one.
You won before , was the system rigged then?

Dan, I am not saying it is. Sorry if I did not explain in correct wording. But what I am saying is asking why this was not even passed the submitters stage. The other picture is there just as a reference to the same area in the sky, hoped it might make it easier to mention negatives about my version. Like look at stars on other image and they were processed 10 times better.
And the last part was a real question; does it matter who uploads an image? does reputation has anything to explain an image?

Dan Kearl

25 days ago

Farshad Mohammadi:
And the last part was a real question; does it matter who uploads an image? does reputation has anything to explain an image?

Again, you have won the IOTD before so your question just seems odd. How did your first one win? Does someone know you?
It just seems like a silly thing to ask.

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

Dan Kearl:
Farshad Mohammadi:
And the last part was a real question; does it matter who uploads an image? does reputation has anything to explain an image?

Again, you have won the IOTD before so your question just seems odd. How did your first one win? Does someone know you?
It just seems like a silly thing to ask.

OK, intention was not to discuss over this and I think system and astrobin are OK. but even if this is what you think I am looking for, since I won once or even 10 times, is not the same as you cannot question the process. Example does not proof the process.

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

Farshad Mohammadi:
And the last part was a real question; does it matter who uploads an image? does reputation has anything to explain an image?

No. Until the very last stage the process is anonymous.

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

And the issue with your image is the splotchy background. And desaturated stars too.

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

andrea tasselli:
splotchy

good point andrea. I thought color calibrated stars are better than saturating them by a lot. In my version, I added 20 unites to the color saturation (in Photoshop) after color calibration in Pixinsight, but the winner probably added a lot. The calibrated colors are not that much pronounced.

Take away is to saturate color of stars beyond calibrated values? (since calibration is done in linear stage, not sure if during the processing and stretching stars I might desaturate their calibrated color !)

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

If you are doing LRGB, which you did, it will tend to desaturate stars anyway. In fact, taken to the very high level of brightness you pushed the image, it will essentially desaturate everything but the largest and most colourful areas. In your case, other than the background, there is wasteness of greyness. For stars and small galaxies the one easy cure is to process them from the RGB image, keep them on side and add them back once the LRGB is done (with previous removal of the existing star foreground, obviously). But you need good SNR in the RGB image to be able to capture the small galaxies too. Which is why that the best ratio here is 1:1:1:1. And Ha is wasted here.

I might give it a go to see what I mean.

Helpful

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

Except these aren't the raw unprocessed files so nought to do. Except removing the obvious gradients:

Tony Gondola

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

One area where I think the image is weak is in composition. I know you were originally inspired by the stars but that I think that original idea has been lost in a mish-mash of LFN with no clear subject anymore.

wsg

25 days ago

80% of members on Astrobin have no idea what Black Point is and dust just for the sake of dust loses it's effect quickly when there is no proper black point.

Arun H

Frequent contributor

25 days ago

There appears to be an unresolved gradient
there is no color in the dust - overuse of L vs RGB or not matching L with RGB before combine
no star color
no contrast vs background - see Scott’s post above.

Oscar

25 days ago

Arun H:
There appears to be an unresolved gradient
there is no color in the dust - overuse of L vs RGB or not matching L with RGB before combine
no star color
no contrast vs background - see Scott’s post above.

+1 on this

Brian Boyle

25 days ago

Arun provided some great suggestions.

I note that your success rate for bronze, silver and gold stars is pretty high (almost 40% of all your images posted) so I think you have already done very well with the judges.

"Why didn't [I, my friend] get a [bronze, silver or gold] star?" has been asked many times before.

While quality plays the largest role, as in life, so does luck. And the higher the prize, the greater role luck plays.

I note with wry amusement that my only (national) astrophotography prize was given to an image that wasn't recognized on Astrobin with a star. I liked it and my friends liked it and - heck - I even sold a printed copy.

That was more than enough for me. The fact I didn't even get a bronze star on AB… pfft. There is always the next image.

Don't worry, be happy.

Well Written Insightful Respectful Engaging Supportive

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

andrea tasselli:
If you are doing LRGB, which you did, it will tend to desaturate stars anyway. In fact, taken to the very high level of brightness you pushed the image, it will essentially desaturate everything but the largest and most colourful areas. In your case, other than the background, there is wasteness of greyness. For stars and small galaxies the one easy cure is to process them from the RGB image, keep them on side and add them back once the LRGB is done (with previous removal of the existing star foreground, obviously). But you need good SNR in the RGB image to be able to capture the small galaxies too. Which is why that the best ratio here is 1:1:1:1. And Ha is wasted here.

I might give it a go to see what I mean.

Thank you for your time. got it.

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

80% of members on Astrobin have no idea what Black Point is and dust just for the sake of dust loses it's effect quickly when there is no proper black point.

wsg, can you please elaborate a bit more and pls be specific to my picture or feel free to pick one of yours. Thanks

Farshad Mohammadi

Topic starter

25 days ago

Brian Boyle:
Arun provided some great suggestions.

I note that your success rate for bronze, silver and gold stars is pretty high (almost 40% of all your images posted) so I think you have already done very well with the judges.

"Why didn't [I, my friend] get a [bronze, silver or gold] star?" has been asked many times before.

While quality plays the largest role, as in life, so does luck. And the higher the prize, the greater role luck plays.

I note with wry amusement that my only (national) astrophotography prize was given to an image that wasn't recognized on Astrobin with a star. I liked it and my friends liked it and - heck - I even sold a printed copy.

That was more than enough for me. The fact I didn't even get a bronze star on AB... pfft. There is always the next image.

Don't worry, be happy.

Thank you.
Which of your images was it? so curious to see it actually

Brian Boyle

24 days ago · Edited: 24 days ago

Farshad Mohammadi:
Brian Boyle:
Arun provided some great suggestions.

I note that your success rate for bronze, silver and gold stars is pretty high (almost 40% of all your images posted) so I think you have already done very well with the judges.

"Why didn't [I, my friend] get a [bronze, silver or gold] star?" has been asked many times before.

While quality plays the largest role, as in life, so does luck. And the higher the prize, the greater role luck plays.

I note with wry amusement that my only (national) astrophotography prize was given to an image that wasn't recognized on Astrobin with a star. I liked it and my friends liked it and - heck - I even sold a printed copy.

That was more than enough for me. The fact I didn't even get a bronze star on AB... pfft. There is always the next image.

Don't worry, be happy.

Thank you.
Which of your images was it? so curious to see it actually

Hi Farshad,

Thank you for your interest. It was

Vela Wide-Field SHO

Another, more recent one, which I thought might merit a star was

Set the controls for the mouth of the Lobster

But the judges didn't agree. C'est la vie. With 85+ bronze and silver stars I can't complain. The judges surely know more about astrophotography than me. And while the stars are a lovely recognition, it isn't the reason I post to AB. Inspire, inform and entertain are all much more important. For me, it is the supportive comments I receive from my AB friends that mean the most.

CS Brian

Respectful Supportive

Mike H - Sky View Observatory

24 days ago · Edited: 24 days ago

I've been a member here for a couple of years and I cannot understand the obsession with getting awards. Oh woe is me I didn't get an award. I didn't get enough likes. My work is not getting the recognition it deserves. It was definitely better than what was posted that day. Really? Then, there's the other side of the coin. I've got 5 IPODs and 7 IOTDs so I built a website as a monument to my glorious achievements. I'm sorry but you have missed the point of this hobby (passion). I've made friends here, gotten great advice and help and displayed my second rate images. So sorry to sound harsh but wow enough is enough. If your image doesn't get enough likes, move on to the next image and try harder

Stop blaming the judges for your short comings. Being under a star filled sky and having the privilege to image them is the ultimate award. It's sad that some don't get that…