Newbie from Bortle 8 London UK - Forums

Topic starter

Oct 31, 2021

Hi Everyone,
About 50 years ago, I was a keen amateur astronomer in Melbourne Australia, and I'd like to get back into astronomy and astrophotography, but boy have things changed in 50 years! I'd like to be able to image DSO, the larger planets and the moon. As I now live in London and suffer from Bortle 8 skies I think things will be challenging but keen to see what can be achieved. Also, I think whatever equipment I end up investing in will also need to be reasonably portable as I may want to take it to darker skies.As I'm also a keen photographer, I don't mind investing in gear that can also be used for regular terristrial photography. My plan is to start small and (rapidly) build up my equipment as my expertise and appetite for challenges grows. While I'm a keen terrestrial photographer, I'm also in the market for a new camera/lenses/tripod for terristrial photography, so I'm hoping my STEP 1 below will be suitable for beginning AP and for regular photography.

So I'm planning on taking the following steps:1) Purchase a DSLR/mirrorless (full frame if possible) camera and a good telephoto/zoom lens. Play with this for a while and practice imaging and post processing. But I'd like to be able to also use the camera on the telescope I end up purchasing (see Step 3). I will also need to purchase a good sturdy tripod, and one that could accommdate a modest tracking mount (see Step 2).2) Graduate onto longer exposures through the purchase of an equatorial mount for the rig purchased in Step 1. 3) Invest in a reasonable telescope and tracking mount - probably a refractor around 100mm to 120mm for the main scope. Utilse the camera from Step 1.4) Invest in an astrocamera. I know I'm asking for a lot, but I want to be able to target DSO, the larger planets and the moon. I appreciate that to achieve this will be a challenge and a compromise (small f numbers for DSO, larger f numbers for planets) but I think this should be possible with the right combination of main scope and tracker scope and accessories. I also need the kit to be reasonably portable.Right now I'm exploring options for Step 1 i.e. camera, lens and tripod. I'm prepared to spend about UK£2000.

For the Step 1 CAMERA my search has lead me to the following:
* I was originally thinking about a Sony A6400 but have learnt about the 'star-eating' habits of the Sony so have now gone off that.
* I'm now thinking about the Fujifilm XT-3 which appears to be a great mirrorless camera.
* Another option which is interesting is the Pentax K-1 Mark 1 as it has a built in astrotracer feature that would allow it to take 60s to 90s exposures without a tracking mount. Sounds good, but I understand it is rather heavy and the choice of lenses could be limited.

For the Step 1 Lens I was thinking of the SAMYANG 135 mm.

In STEP1 I was hoping to be able to image M31, M42, the moon and Jupiter and Saturn. Is this crazy??

All ideas and comments welcome!

@maddie_astro

Nov 1, 2021 · Edited: Nov 1, 2021

Hi,

I started out with DSLR, they are great choice for someone getting into the happy for the first time or returning after some time away.

With that lens you wouldn’t have a problem imaging M31/M42, but it wouldn’t be suitable for planetary, for this you really need something with a larger aperture and longer focal length (F12+), even with my F5 200/1000mm Newtonian the planets are very small.

If you haven’t already come across it there is great website called astronomy.tools that has calculators that can help determine the kind of field of view you would get with different setups.

Maddie

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David Nozadze

Nov 1, 2021

Hello @evacguy .

Welcome to Astrobin!

I think you already have every step planned out quite well! I would only recommend to go straight for the equatorial mount, as it will support a dslr AND a larger telescope. If you do not intend to travel on foot to dark skies, there is not much benefit in investing into a photo tripod and a tracker.

As for Bortle 8 skies, you will be able to shoot any object, but it will just take more effort for both, acquisition as well as processing.

I have a Fujifilm X-T3. It is a fantastic camera for the usual photography. People say it has much better sensitivity to lower end of the red spectrum (which is good for astrophotography). But the same people also say, that X-Trans sensor pattern is not ideal for the sky objects.

Anyway, I took my first ever DSO image with X-T3 and Celestron Nexstar 5SE from my downtown Bortle 1,000,000+ balcony exactly one year and one week ago and here it is:

Good luck and clear skies!

David

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Olaf Fritsche

Nov 1, 2021 · Edited: Nov 1, 2021

Hi,
welcome to Astrobin!
Your plan sounds pretty good and well thought out. I wonder though if a DSLR camera is really the right choice if you live under a Bortle 8 sky. A pure astro camera with narrow band filters would probably be a better choice there. Or do you always want to go to the countryside to take pictures?

For the tripod, I recommend you take a look at the wooden tripods from Berlebach. The wood reduces vibrations much better than steel. They come in a variety of sizes. I have a Report for the small SkyTracker and a Planet for the large iOptron CEM70. Both do their job without a hitch.

I look forward to seeing your pictures!
Clear skies!

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andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

Nov 1, 2021

X-Trans offer a superior sensitivity in the deep red region of the specturm and would be a proper choice to go for with unmodified dSLR. This said, they are not supported by any program for astrophotography so automating the process isn't really possible. If you buy the XT-3 you might be able to use the Fujifilm own programs for tethered shooting byt they are quite expensive so bear that in mind. Obviously you can buy an external intervalometer but not sure how is going to work while shooting blind (i.e. you won't be able to preview the resulting shots form an AP session). I'd ignore Pentax completely.

In terms of AP oriented dSLRs you have basically two choices: Canon and Nikon. Canon is better supported for all things AP, most importantly to you in Bortle 8 skies, clip-on filters. Also, they are easier to find or get modified for extended R sensitivity, which I think is paramount for AP. Nikons offer better sensitivity overall but are only supported in the full frame version and you might have issue finding someone to modify them for you in the UK (but there are options in the EU or US). Both will work a treat with all the common AP oriented programs out there.

From the off I'd go with a tracking mount of some capacity. This will allow you to image most large DSO with a medium telephoto lens. Some of the more expensive tracking platforms would allow you to use up to 500mm in FL, but this is about it. This ignoring the issue of actually find the object in the sky and framing it in a Bortle 8 skies.

Tripod: Depending on what you want to mount on buy a good one, wood or metal is irrelevant. My rather expensive Manfrotto is pretty good but rather heavy. Another cheaper option is to go for surveyors' tripods. They are very stable and can be had on the cheap used.

As for planets, you can forget it. At least an 8" with a couple of meter focal length is needed and a half decent GEM as well.

Helpful

evacguy

Topic starter

Nov 1, 2021

David Nozadze:
Hello @evacguy .

Welcome to Astrobin!

I think you already have every step planned out quite well! I would only recommend to go straight for the equatorial mount, as it will support a dslr AND a larger telescope. If you do not intend to travel on foot to dark skies, there is not much benefit in investing into a photo tripod and a tracker.

As for Bortle 8 skies, you will be able to shoot any object, but it will just take more effort for both, acquisition as well as processing.

I have a Fujifilm X-T3. It is a fantastic camera for the usual photography. People say it has much better sensitivity to lower end of the red spectrum (which is good for astrophotography). But the same people also say, that X-Trans sensor pattern is not ideal for the sky objects.

Anyway, I took my first ever DSO image with X-T3 and Celestron Nexstar 5SE from my downtown Bortle 1,000,000+ balcony exactly one year and one week ago and here it is:

Good luck and clear skies!

David

David many thanks for your words of encouragement and the advice on the XT3. Your image is fantastic, gives me something to aspire to. Thanks again mate.

Respectful Supportive

evacguy

Topic starter

Nov 1, 2021

Olaf Fritsche:
Hi,
welcome to Astrobin!
Your plan sounds pretty good and well thought out. I wonder though if a DSLR camera is really the right choice if you live under a Bortle 8 sky. A pure astro camera with narrow band filters would probably be a better choice there. Or do you always want to go to the countryside to take pictures?

For the tripod, I recommend you take a look at the wooden tripods from Berlebach. The wood reduces vibrations much better than steel. They come in a variety of sizes. I have a Report for the small SkyTracker and a Planet for the large iOptron CEM70. Both do their job without a hitch.

I look forward to seeing your pictures!
Clear skies!

Hi Olaf, many thanks for your comments and advice. Back in the day, I had a Japanese GOTO telescope with 75mm lens and focal length of 1300mm. It had an equatorial mount and WOODEN tripod. It was FANTASTIC! My younger brother still has it in Melbourne Australia. Concerning my setup, I intend to mainly be working from home, so Bortle 8 London, but also intend to go away to dark skies when possible. So I want my kit to be reasonably portable. I'm thinking that my kit for my Step 1 and 2 will be very portable, while my kit for Step 3 will be less so. I have not heard of the REPORT will have to look it up.

Thanks again.

Respectful Supportive

evacguy

Topic starter

Nov 1, 2021

andrea tasselli:
X-Trans offer a superior sensitivity in the deep red region of the specturm and would be a proper choice to go for with unmodified dSLR. This said, they are not supported by any program for astrophotography so automating the process isn't really possible. If you buy the XT-3 you might be able to use the Fujifilm own programs for tethered shooting byt they are quite expensive so bear that in mind. Obviously you can buy an external intervalometer but not sure how is going to work while shooting blind (i.e. you won't be able to preview the resulting shots form an AP session). I'd ignore Pentax completely.

In terms of AP oriented dSLRs you have basically two choices: Canon and Nikon. Canon is better supported for all things AP, most importantly to you in Bortle 8 skies, clip-on filters. Also, they are easier to find or get modified for extended R sensitivity, which I think is paramount for AP. Nikons offer better sensitivity overall but are only supported in the full frame version and you might have issue finding someone to modify them for you in the UK (but there are options in the EU or US). Both will work a treat with all the common AP oriented programs out there.

From the off I'd go with a tracking mount of some capacity. This will allow you to image most large DSO with a medium telephoto lens. Some of the more expensive tracking platforms would allow you to use up to 500mm in FL, but this is about it. This ignoring the issue of actually find the object in the sky and framing it in a Bortle 8 skies.

Tripod: Depending on what you want to mount on buy a good one, wood or metal is irrelevant. My rather expensive Manfrotto is pretty good but rather heavy. Another cheaper option is to go for surveyors' tripods. They are very stable and can be had on the cheap used.

As for planets, you can forget it. At least an 8" with a couple of meter focal length is needed and a half decent GEM as well.

@andrea tasselli many thanks for the advice. It sounds like you don't like Pentax, is that because of the image quality it produces or the fact that it is not compatible with AP automation software for controlling shots? Also, I'm not sure I follow your comments concerning the XT-3 not being supported by AP software. Do you mean its not supported by AP automation software that is used for controlling the light exposures? I was going to use an intervalometer as you suggest, but I don't follow what you mean that I won't be able to view the shots from an AP session? Won't the screen on the camera work if an intervalometer is connected? Or is it that given I'm in Bortle 8 it just won't be visible on the screen, so targeting and framing is going to be difficult?

I was hoping to get the Fujiflim XT-3 as it seems a great camera for my terristerial photography, but if it is not suited to AP I may have to go the Canon route.

Not sure I follow you comment about the planets. Back in the day, I had a Japanese refractor by GOTO, it had an aperture of 75mm and focal length of 1300mm and I had great views (viusal) of Jupiter and Saturn. Even tried some film photography. What I was hoping to achieve with the telephoto lens was at least resolving the disks of the planets and capturing the satellites. Would this be possible? With the larger scope I intend to eventually purchase (my Step 3, 100mm to 120mm refractor) I was hoping to be able to image at least an indication of the bands on Jupiter and the rings of Saturn. Is this not possible?

I very much appreciate you taking the time to assist me.

andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

Nov 1, 2021 · Edited: Nov 1, 2021

Pentax is fine by me, by all means! It is that isn't worth the bother compared with Nikons sporting the same sensor and having a far larger set of available lens to go with. What I mean with my previous comment (I have an XT-1 so I am one of those guys who like them Fujifilm cameras!) is that you can't control the camera from a remote screen, as in a tethered solution. As I said you could still use their software but isn't really meant for long exposures so I don't know if you can preset it to take interval shots of several minutes apiece.

With an intervalometer you won't be able to look at the results (which in Bortle 8 skies will be very dim and fogged up anyway) with any detail in the time between one shot and the next even if you were to look them up on the screen. This assuming you're good at tinkering with it whilst not disturbing the tracking mount tracking, which easier said than done (and I have done it but it isn't easy or desireable). You could get away with making sure the frame is centered on the subject and accurately focused beforehand and hoping to get away with it as far a couple of hours with mid-size tele lens. This is going to be as good as it will ever get. You can always stop the intervalometer, download the shots and look them up and maybe decided to reset the whole thing by focusing or changing the framing. This can all be done without relaying on an external program to control and download all the shots from the camera as it tracks the skies. You shot blind and crossing finger all will be good on the night. Or not. Much easier to go on with a program like NINA or APT (check them out).

Living and imaging under Bortle 8 skies brings in a considerable challenges. It won't help not using specilized hardware (filters) that go a great length to ameliorate the situation with light pollution. That's why what camera you chose must consider whether all the options are open to you there aren't otherwise. Obviously this isn't an issue if you shot from pristine skies.

As for planets, you might be able to resolve disks and capture satellites with a long tele lens (say 500mm). And that's it. If you mean like viewing them in any detail (visually viewing) than I'm afraid that the bigger the better for this and at least a scope as I mentioned before. I don't know about your eyes but mine aren't as good as they were 30 years ago by a very long country mile.

Carastro

Nov 1, 2021 · Edited: Nov 2, 2021

I must admit I haven't read all the replies, so apologies if any of this is a repeat.

I too live in Bortle 8, SE London.
I also started with a DSLR camera having no previous experience with photography except for an automatic camera (ha ha).

I soon learnt that you can only really image the brightest targets in London, and the most useful thing for me was a change to a mono camera and the use of Narrowband filters. Whilst a DSLR simplifies some things for a learner, it is not user friendly insomuch as it doesn't show you much on live view except the brightest of stars, and you are never really sure if you have found or centred your target properly. Plus it is not cooled and will be noisy compared to a cooled Dedicated camera.

I too also travel regularly to darker locations and I use a Skywatcher HEQ5 which is sturdy enough to take a lot of scopes and cameras suirable for DS imaging.

I see you quoted "Lens I was thinking of the SAMYANG 135 mm. " I bought one of these almost 2 years ago and am sooooo pleased with it. I thoroughly recommend it.

YOu might like to take a look at a website I created of my images solely done from Bortle 8. It's not entirely upto date, but should give you some idea of what can be achieved.

https://sites.google.com/view/carastroimaging/home

I hope this helps.

Carole

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evacguy

Topic starter

Nov 1, 2021

andrea tasselli:
Living and imaging under Bortle 8 skies brings in a considerable challenge. It won't help not using specilized hardware (filters) that go a great length to ameliorate the situation with light pollution. That's why what camera you chose must consider whether all the options are open to you there aren't otherwise. Obviously this isn't an issue if you shot from pristine skies.

Hi Andrea Tasselli, many thanks for your comments and advice. One last question, as I'm plagued by Bortle 8 skies, I understand that I will need to be imaging with filters, probably a broadband light pollution filter like the Optolong L-enhance or similar. My question is, how are these used/installed when using the X-T3? For example, if I was using the Samyang 135mm lens or a 200mm lens, how would I install the filter? Do I need to purchase some kind of cassette that takes the filter that sits between the back of the lens and the camera? These filters are either 1.25'' or 2.0'' so won't screw onto the aperture of the lens. Optolong also do camera plug in versions, but I assume that is just for Canon? It's been suggested that I could use step rings on the front of the lens to fit the filter. But won't this stop down my lens, so won't I be losing aperture using this approach? So if I go down the X-T3 route, does that mean I can't use filters to tame the light pollution?

This could be a deal breaker for the X-T3 (which is a shame) and so will force me down the Canon route. If so, the challenge will be finding a suitable Canon to meet my needs of a good terristrial camera and a good camera for AP.

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Lynn K

Nov 2, 2021

I have little experience with DSLRs. So, I can't be of much assistance there. I will, however, agree with comments above with the limitation of a DSLR for DSO and planetary imaging. It will be excellent for the moon.

I live and image from Bortel 7 skies. So, I have have experience with that. here are my thoughts:
1. One shot color whether DSLR or dedicated CCD/CMOS needs dark skies to work well. Light pollution filter s are not very effective. If they were, we would all be using them instead of narrow band filters. You will fight gradients and green dominated backgrounds due to the chip being 50 % green pixels. The new Bi-narrow band (using Ha & OIII) and tri-narrow band filters using Ha, OIII & SII can work. But as mentioned, Mono CCD/CMOS narrow band filter imaging is what is needed to combat light pollution.

2. You need about 1500 minimum to 3000 focal length to do planetary well. A SCT barlowed to F20 or a Maksutov is the best choice. The best camera for planetary is a small chip video such as the ones ZWO sells. One use sub frame 1/60 of a sec or faster for around 2 min. In that time you will accumulate 2000 or more frames. One then uses software to do what is called LUCKY imaging. The software will select a small percentage of the best focused frames and stack them.
This will also work well for Lunar and Solar imaging. A DSLR may work in video mode, but your file size load may be overwhelming. This all started (as I did) by modify web cameras and moving to surveillance cameras. It was soon picked up by surveillance camera manufactures and marketed as planetary cameras. Then finally picked up by manufactures such as ZWO as dedicated planetary cameras.

3. The sturdiest photo tripod will not handle a equatorial mount. They will only be good for something like the SkyWatcher SkyAdventure. https://www.skywatcherusa.com/collections/star-adventurer/products/star-adventurer-pro-pack A cool little mount. I have one, but only use for wide field Milky Way images.

4. It's best to research and purchase once as opposed to buy/sale/re-purchase. We have all probably done that. Rather than starting with DSLR to CMOS latter, and photo tripod to equatorial latter and lens to 100mm refractor latter. You might fine you have to start with one type of imaging, then add another latter.
In other words, you might find that your interest in day time photography with the DSLR, lens, tripod may be specialized for that activity and may have some use with astrophotography. But very limited in Bortle 8 skies. A separate system for DSO. If that is a small 80mm refractor, then it might have birding applications. If latter you purchase a long focal length scope, it will accommodate high resolution DSO and Planetary. As any photographer will have multi lens, the same is true with astrophotography. Objects vary in size and difficulty, and require different approaches.

Lynn K.

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andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

Nov 2, 2021

andrea tasselli:
Living and imaging under Bortle 8 skies brings in a considerable challenge. It won't help not using specilized hardware (filters) that go a great length to ameliorate the situation with light pollution. That's why what camera you chose must consider whether all the options are open to you there aren't otherwise. Obviously this isn't an issue if you shot from pristine skies.

Hi Andrea Tasselli, many thanks for your comments and advice. One last question, as I'm plagued by Bortle 8 skies, I understand that I will need to be imaging with filters, probably a broadband light pollution filter like the Optolong L-enhance or similar. My question is, how are these used/installed when using the X-T3? For example, if I was using the Samyang 135mm lens or a 200mm lens, how would I install the filter? Do I need to purchase some kind of cassette that takes the filter that sits between the back of the lens and the camera? These filters are either 1.25'' or 2.0'' so won't screw onto the aperture of the lens. Optolong also do camera plug in versions, but I assume that is just for Canon? It's been suggested that I could use step rings on the front of the lens to fit the filter. But won't this stop down my lens, so won't I be losing aperture using this approach? So if I go down the X-T3 route, does that mean I can't use filters to tame the light pollution?

This could be a deal breaker for the X-T3 (which is a shame) and so will force me down the Canon route. If so, the challenge will be finding a suitable Canon to meet my needs of a good terristrial camera and a good camera for AP.

They, sadly, don't work for any Fujifilm that I know of. So I haven't discovered anything beyond Canon and Nikon FF. You could get away with smaller lens than won't vignette using a step-don/up adapter (e.g. 48mm to 52mm) and a 2" filter. But that won't work with a Samyang. What you need are clip-on filters and they only make them for Canon and Nikon (maybe some Sony). So that restrict your choice.

evacguy

Topic starter

Nov 3, 2021

Carastro:
I must admit I haven't read all the replies, so apologies if any of this is a repeat.

I too live in Bortle 8, SE London.
I also started with a DSLR camera having no previous experience with photography except for an automatic camera (ha ha).

I soon learnt that you can only really image the brightest targets in London, and the most useful thing for me was a change to a mono camera and the use of Narrowband filters. Whilst a DSLR simplifies some things for a learner, it is not user friendly insomuch as it doesn't show you much on live view except the brightest of stars, and you are never really sure if you have found or centred your target properly. Plus it is not cooled and will be noisy compared to a cooled Dedicated camera.

I too also travel regularly to darker locations and I use a Skywatcher HEQ5 which is sturdy enough to take a lot of scopes and cameras suirable for DS imaging.

I see you quoted "Lens I was thinking of the SAMYANG 135 mm. " I bought one of these almost 2 years ago and am sooooo pleased with it. I thoroughly recommend it.

YOu might like to take a look at a website I created of my images solely done from Bortle 8. It's not entirely upto date, but should give you some idea of what can be achieved.

https://sites.google.com/view/carastroimaging/home

I hope this helps.

Carole

Hi @Carastro, thank you soooooooo much for your positive reply. I just visited your site and your images blew me away - all taken in Bortle 8 SE London skies, epic stuff. This is precisely the positive feedback I needed, you are a STAR (pun intended)!

If you haven't gone through the thread, I have outlined a development path I hope to follow (assuming I don't give up) and Step 1 is to purchase a good DSLR camera and a Lens, without tracking (that is Step 2) to see what I can image in SE London Bortle 8 skies and to learn about post processing. I am starting from scratch but I'm also a keen terristrial photographer so want to invest in a DSLR that I can use for both AP and terristrial photography (Step 3 involves purchasing a 100mm to 120mm refractor with tracking mount and Step 4 involves an astro camera).

Right now I like the Fujifilm XT3 but am also considering a Canon (something like EOS T7i or better) and a Samyang 135mm lens. I've also been sidetracked with the issue of filters and whether or not they are necessary for my Step 1 untracked imaging. Any advice welcome.

The type of targets I would go for in Step 1 are just the bright DSO like M31 and Orion Nebula, the moon and if possible Jupiter/Saturn (just want to be able to resolve the planetary disk and capture the larger satellites). Any advice welcome.

If you are ever in the Blackheath/Greenwich area let me know, would be great to have a coffee and a chin wag (COVID19 permitting).

Engaging Supportive

Rich Sky

Nov 3, 2021

Have a look at my images, all from borttle 8-9. Clear skies is all that you need

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