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Specific question on imaging behavior with respect to camera cooling target vs actual- NINA

Stefan Berg Nighttime Imaging 'N' Astronomy (N.I.N.A. / NINA) Starkeeper Voyager Cooling
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
I use voyager. In voyager you can allow a maximum of 3 degrees delta between the actual CCD temp and the specified CCD temp to allow the program to image.  So, if I want -20C, and the camera cooler is at -18C, it will proceed with imaging.

The problem I am having, is that I have specified -20C, however the night got a little colder than forecast and the camera cooler at 0% TEC was running at-24C.  Since the delta was greater than 3 degrees, Voyager just goes into repeated timeouts waiting to see if it comes within range.

I have lost numerous nights and hours because of this issue.  I'm wondering how NINA would handle this situation.  Does it allow for a larger Delta?  Does it not care and just image regardless?  Are there user parameters to make this work in the scenario that I am asking about?

I've emailed Leo (Voyager dev) at the beginning of March with no response.  I tried again today, so maybe he will respond.  Otherwise, I need to change to a different program.  I'm using the QHY SBFL 600 and cooling is very temperamental with it. 

Please do not make this an anti-voyager or pro-NINA thread.  I already know the score with respect to Leo, and have had enough bad experiences with him to prompt me to look into NINA.  I also know there is a huge community of NINA fans. 

Thanks in advance,
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andrea tasselli avatar
andrea tasselli avatar
I t will go on regardless of sensor temperature.
Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
andrea tasselli:
I t will go on regardless of sensor temperature.



Which correct me if I am wrong.... is much better than no imaging at all... lol.
andrea tasselli avatar
andrea tasselli avatar
Abso - friggin' -lutely! Besides, with modern pattern-less sensors getting the right temperature isn't as critical as it used to be and IR leaks are only weakly dependent on temperature.
Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
andrea tasselli:
Abso - friggin' -lutely! Besides, with modern pattern-less sensors getting the right temperature isn't as critical as it used to be and IR leaks are only weakly dependent on temperature.



I put this to the test with another imx455 camera. The TEC cooler fried and wouldn't work on a remote deployment. I had to image for 3 months before I could fly to yhe site to replace it. All the data taken uncooled was calibrated with a common master dark that for much of the data set was mismatched by up to 15C delta. The data calibrated beautifully and there was no problem. Thankfully it was winter and the chip temp was below 0c for most of it so thermal noise to begin with was low. 

Thanks for answering my question. Looks like NINA will be in my future unless Leo decides to address the issue i am having with voyager.
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Bruce Donzanti avatar
Bruce Donzanti avatar
Hey Chris- I've been using NINA for a few years now and there have not been any issues with the camera temperature control.  Basically, within NINA, you set your camera temp and then the camera itself takes over to maintain the set temp.  You cannot set a delta that I am aware of but you can set a minimum duration to reach your selected cooling temp (you can do the same in heating it).  Frankly, I am not sure why you would need that optional feature as the temp is maintained within about 0.1-0.2 degrees of your setting by the camera cooler power adjusting on the fly.  NINA does not stop or go on standby during such minor fluctuations.  I've never gone down to -20 in Florida (-15 has been my lowest use) but I think you will find out it will work just fine for you.  NINA is so simply to use that it would be worth it for you to give it a test drive one evening and see for yourself- casn't hurt to try it.

Bruce
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
Chris White- Overcast Observatory avatar
Bruce, the problem is that my camera is too cold, and voyager won't allow it to image because the set point is warmer than the camera is able to achieve.
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Médéric Hébert avatar
Médéric Hébert avatar
I keep my temp setting at -10°C all year round even when it's -25°C outside and NINA never complained nor missed an opportunity. It should work well for you too for those cases. The behavior I see is NINA waiting until the camera as reached the set temp then it stops caring and let the driver adjust cooler power to maintain it.
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andrea tasselli avatar
andrea tasselli avatar
NINA does not wait. At least my version does not.
Arun H avatar
Arun H avatar
andrea tasselli:
I t will go on regardless of sensor temperature.

The NINA instruction documentation is not clear on this point. For example, here is what it says:




So clearly, NINA does not take the instruction as having been completed until the camera is within a certain delta of the set point. I think most programs work this way, if you are starting at a warmer temperature than the SP. The question is what happens if the set point is warmer, and I suspect the behavior may be different depending on if the set point was warmer at the beginning of the run or the outside temperature got colder as the night progressed such that the set point was too warm for the camera to maintain. I could totally see NINA continuing on in the second instance, but waiting indefinitely in the first, since the command documentation clearly says that the desired temperature has to be reached and only then the command is considered completed.

FWIW, I run into this (not with NINA specifically but with the outside temperature getting lower than SP) on occasion in Wisconsin winters. My solution is, at the beginning of the night, to simply set a temperature at least 5 C lower than I anticipate the temperature going down to, since it is trivial to generate a new set of darks for calibration.
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andrea tasselli avatar
andrea tasselli avatar
I shan't think so. NINA can't give an hoot about what the documentation says. Proof of that is the list below. As you can't fail to notice each 5s image was taken while the camera went into cooling down to the SP temperature of -10 degC.
 Directory of C:\Captures\SNAPSHOT

21/04/2025  20:37    <DIR>          .
21/04/2025  20:37    <DIR>          ..
21/04/2025  20:37                 0 list.dat
21/04/2025  20:22        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-22-07_OIII_8.70_5.00s_0000.fits
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21/04/2025  20:22        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-22-24_OIII_8.30_5.00s_0002.fits
21/04/2025  20:22        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-22-30_OIII_8.30_5.00s_0003.fits
21/04/2025  20:22        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-22-36_OIII_8.30_5.00s_0004.fits
21/04/2025  20:22        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-22-43_OIII_7.90_5.00s_0005.fits
21/04/2025  20:22        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-22-49_OIII_7.50_5.00s_0006.fits
21/04/2025  20:23        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-22-55_OIII_7.50_5.00s_0007.fits
21/04/2025  20:23        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-23-02_OIII_7.20_5.00s_0008.fits
21/04/2025  20:23        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-23-08_OIII_6.80_5.00s_0009.fits
21/04/2025  20:23        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-23-14_OIII_6.80_5.00s_0010.fits
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21/04/2025  20:24        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-24-16_OIII_2.90_5.00s_0020.fits
21/04/2025  20:24        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-24-23_OIII_2.90_5.00s_0021.fits
21/04/2025  20:24        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-24-29_OIII_2.10_5.00s_0022.fits
21/04/2025  20:24        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-24-35_OIII_1.70_5.00s_0023.fits
21/04/2025  20:24        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-24-41_OIII_1.70_5.00s_0024.fits
21/04/2025  20:24        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-24-47_OIII_1.30_5.00s_0025.fits
21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-24-53_OIII_1.30_5.00s_0026.fits
21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-00_OIII_0.40_5.00s_0027.fits
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21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-19_OIII_-0.80_5.00s_0030.fits
21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-25_OIII_-1.20_5.00s_0031.fits
21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-31_OIII_-1.60_5.00s_0032.fits
21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-37_OIII_-2.10_5.00s_0033.fits
21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-43_OIII_-2.50_5.00s_0034.fits
21/04/2025  20:25        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-50_OIII_-3.00_5.00s_0035.fits
21/04/2025  20:26        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-25-56_OIII_-3.40_5.00s_0036.fits
21/04/2025  20:26        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-26-02_OIII_-3.90_5.00s_0037.fits
21/04/2025  20:26        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-26-08_OIII_-3.90_5.00s_0038.fits
21/04/2025  20:26        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-26-14_OIII_-4.90_5.00s_0039.fits
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21/04/2025  20:26        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-26-27_OIII_-5.30_5.00s_0041.fits
21/04/2025  20:26        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-26-33_OIII_-5.80_5.00s_0042.fits
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21/04/2025  20:27        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-27-04_OIII_-7.80_5.00s_0047.fits
21/04/2025  20:27        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-27-11_OIII_-7.80_5.00s_0048.fits
21/04/2025  20:27        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-27-17_OIII_-8.90_5.00s_0049.fits
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21/04/2025  20:28        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-27-54_OIII_-10.00_5.00s_0055.fits
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21/04/2025  20:28        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-28-25_OIII_-10.50_5.00s_0060.fits
21/04/2025  20:28        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-28-32_OIII_-11.10_5.00s_0061.fits
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21/04/2025  20:29        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-29-03_OIII_-10.50_5.00s_0066.fits
21/04/2025  20:29        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-29-09_OIII_-10.50_5.00s_0067.fits
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21/04/2025  20:29        93,562,560 Snapshot_2025-04-21_20-29-27_OIII_-10.50_5.00s_0070.fits
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Médéric Hébert avatar
Médéric Hébert avatar
My version does wait until it's within half a degree or so. I set my sequence to cool the camera a bit before dusk anyway. As for the outside temp being lower than set point or getting lower over the course of the night, NINA doesn't care, as long as it's below set temp it goes ahead with the cooler at 0% power.
Arun H avatar
Arun H avatar
Médéric Hébert:
As for the outside temp being lower than set point or getting lower over the course of the night, NINA doesn't care, as long as it's below set temp it goes ahead with the cooler at 0% power.


Thanks, that behavior is something I'd expect, i.e., if the temperature goes lower and the cooler is at 0% power, imaging continues. However, if the temperature of the camera rises due to a cooling failure, I'd hope an alert is triggered.

Since NINA is open source, the logic should be known and I hope someone who is familiar with the program can share exactly how this works or is supposed to, and if the behavior that Andrea has documented is an error/aberration or there is something else going on.
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Jure Menart avatar
Jure Menart avatar
Arun H:
Médéric Hébert:
As for the outside temp being lower than set point or getting lower over the course of the night, NINA doesn't care, as long as it's below set temp it goes ahead with the cooler at 0% power.


Thanks, that behavior is something I'd expect, i.e., if the temperature goes lower and the cooler is at 0% power, imaging continues. However, if the temperature of the camera rises due to a cooling failure, I'd hope an alert is triggered.

Since NINA is open source, the logic should be known and I hope someone who is familiar with the program can share exactly how this works or is supposed to, and if the behavior that Andrea has documented is an error/aberration or there is something else going on.

I don't know exact logic how it monitors temperature once the set temperature is achieved, but what Andrea showed is intentional behaviour WITHOUT using the step in sequencer to wait for set temperature.

I wouldn't say it's default behaviour but rather behaviour of his usage / sequencer settings.

So no error/abberation, just one way to use N.I.N.A.
Dale Ghent avatar
Dale Ghent avatar
Coming late into this thread but I thought I'd provide some info:

1. Cameras (via their firmware, driver, or both) do their own temperature regulation. Applications (NINA, Voyager, SGPro, etc.) just configure a temperature setpoint - a goal - to reach. The camera takes it from there.

2. NINA obsesses over the actual temperature only upon it being set. NINA's sequencer instructions will wait up to 15 minutes for the setpoint to be reached by the camera. If the setpoint cannot be reached (ie, it's too warm for the camera to cool to it) then NINA will timeout after 15 minutes of waiting, raise an error notification, and mark the instruction as unsuccessful. What happens in response to this is up to how the instruction's failure mode is set. By default, NINA will just complain and move on to the next item but you can have it do something else, including ending the sequence.

hen warming the camera in a controlled manner, the same 15 minute timeout still exists but there is no error produced if the temperature is impossible to reach (ie, the air is colder than the setpoint you've set it to warm to.)

3. No other point during the sequence will NINA proactively halt, pause or interfere with the sequence if the camera moves away, warmer or cooler, than the setpoint. As Chris has noted, there can be some debate about what's more correct to do; but that can really depend on the camera in question. I would say that below -10C, the camera getting colder because that's just how cold the air is, is no big deal. The dark current is already incredibly miniscule.  If reacting to an excursion from the setpoint is desired, then you can probably set something up in your imaging loop using the If/When container from the PowerUps plugin.
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JohnAdastra avatar
JohnAdastra avatar
andrea tasselli:
I t will go on regardless of sensor temperature.


No. The advanced sequencer won't continue if the sensor is too warm. Not sure about it being too cold, but I think the default tolerance is +/- 3C, unless you can find a way to change it.
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Médéric Hébert avatar
Médéric Hébert avatar
andrea tasselli:
I t will go on regardless of sensor temperature.


No. The advanced sequencer won't continue if the sensor is too warm. Not sure about it being too cold, but I think the default tolerance is +/- 3C, unless you can find a way to change it.

Never had the snesor being too warm since the nights are usually cold around here, but the sensor being too cold won't stop the advanced sequencer, even when the sensor is 10°C to 15°C below target.