Which Version of ZWO ASI120MM? - Forums

Topic starter

Oct 24, 2021

*** Apologies for those of you also active on Cloudy Nights, where I have also asked this question ***

I am looking to start guiding with a WO Uniguide 32 atop a WO Zenithstar 61, mounted to a Skyguider Pro. I am considering the ZWO ASI120MM Mini or the ASI120MM-S. I own a Mac laptop and am planning to setup an Astroberry or Stellarmate system. I do not run Windows on my Mac.

I have heard that there are issues connecting the “ASI120MM” on a Mac or Linux system. I’m not sure if that means the current mini version, or just the older USB 2.0 ASI120MM. Apparently it’s no problem to use PHD and guide, but I might have issues if I wanted to try planetary or EAA with it. Guiding would be the primary purpose of the camera, though.

Is it worth the extra weight and cost for the USB 3.0 version, or have they fixed the Mac/Linux connectivity issues with the mini and are simply referring to the older non-mini USB 2.0 version as having the issues? I would appreciate any insight or clarification. Thank you all!

CS,
Mark

PS: I’d not be doing planetary on the Z61. I have a 4.5” Dob that I thought I’d try it on. Oh… would I be unable to reach focus with the MM-S on the Dob? I know the mini is supposed to be able to reach focus at the same position as an eyepiece. Maybe this is all moot if the MM-S can’t reach focus on the Dob, in which case I’d go with the mini and just use it for guiding.

wsg

Oct 25, 2021

Mark. I believe the latest ZWO web page under the "Guide Camera" tab lists 3 cameras. 120mini, 174mini and 290mini, so that should tell you all you need to know. I have the very first version of the 120mm and it is dead in the water for any use I have for it and I believe is not recognized by my AirPro when connected. The 120mm-s and 120mc-s are planetary cameras. Avoid the old 120 and get the 120mini.

scott

Helpful

Mark Germani

Topic starter

Oct 25, 2021

Hi Scott:

Thanks! Yeah, I know most folks go for the mini. But on the ZWO drivers page, it says that the "ASI120MM" drivers do not play well on Mac or Linux systems, and to get the USB 3.0 version instead. I'm not sure if they mean just the very first version is problematic, or any USB 2.0 version of the camera (the Mini included). Some folks online have said they have had issues with the ASI120MM-Mini and Mac OS, so I'm a little apprehensive.

As far as I'm aware, the "Mini" and "S" are the same sensor, but the "S" supports USB 3.0 (higher frame-rate). I'd like to be able to use the camera for a little EAA with my daughter from time to time, maybe even a bit of planetary with our 4.5" Dob. If I can do that with the Mini, then that makes the decision easy - 60g lighter on the Skyguider! But if I'm going to be locked into only using it for guiding because I can't use the drivers on Mac or Linux, the extra $30 might be worth it. Thoughts?

CS,
Mark

Well Written Insightful Respectful Engaging

Tommy Blomqvist

Oct 25, 2021

I think that as the mini-versions are older than the -s there was firmware issues.
I am using 120mm-mini for guiding and it works great but I did have some major USB-issues with newer laptops with USB3, thunderbolt and Windows (10).
But firmware updates solved all of this.

The -s is much quicker (120mini 34 fps / 120-s 60 fps) but if you are only using it for guiding you will att most need 0,5 fps 😀

Concise

Mark Germani

Topic starter

Oct 25, 2021

Thanks Tommy. The -S version would be overkill for guiding, for sure, but I’d like to be able to mess around with a bit of EAA and planetary photography.

I guess if you look hard enough you can find forum posts detailing connections issues for any camera. Maybe I’ll just buy the Mini and cross my fingers…

Has anyone out there connected a Mini to a Mac for purposes other than guiding?

dkamen

Oct 25, 2021 · Edited: Oct 25, 2021

Hi Mark,

Stellarmate and Astroberry run on the Raspberry Pi. However, the underlying software (KStars, Ekos, INDI) can be installed directly on the Mac. Or you can use a Raspberry Pi as an "endpoint" with just Indi, and the rest of the stack on the Mac. Anyway bottom line is all those things use pretty much the same software, mainly the INDI drivers.

I had the 120MM-Mini on a Raspberry Pi 4 and it was causing interference when imaging with another ASI camera, in the form of a black band at the top of the image and extremely unpredictable electronic noise that made it impossible to calibrate. I had actually opened a thread because I thought the issue was with the other camera and by happy coincidence figured it out moments later.

https://www.astrobin.com/forum/c/astrophotography/equipment/two-kinds-of-subs-with-the-uncooled-zwo-asi-178mcmm/

There was no problem guiding with the 120MM-mini and using a DSLR though. Well, almost. If you look at dmesg the camera disconnects and reconnects almost every minute, but that sheldom resulted in any visible problem.

The 120MM-S had many problems on the Raspberry Pi a couple of years ago, I don't know if things have improved.

Finally, the 120MM (plain, no -mini, no -s) is not supported by ASIAIR and I don't think it is sold any more.

The problem with all cameras in the 120 series is that they do not speak standard USB2. The driver hacks its way around their quirks. Other platforms (operating systems but USB controllers as well I would imagine) are fine with this, others, especially newer ones, are not. If possible, try to test one before you commit. Another option is setting up a dedicated Linux on some old laptop or a Raspberry pi if INDI is acting up on the Mac. Or get a 224MC, nothing wrong using a color camera for guiding and you can also have fun imaging planets with it. You could also consider the Omegon camera that is based on the same sensor, here is a review that says it is working for them both on the Mac and on the RPi:

https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-cameras/omegon-camera-guide-1200b-m-mono/p,61031#tab_bar_2_select

Cheers
Dimitris

Helpful Insightful Respectful Engaging

Mark Germani

Topic starter

Oct 25, 2021 · Edited: Oct 25, 2021

Thanks so much Dimitris!

That’s a lot of really useful info. The Omegon camera looks great - doesn’t seem to be available in North America though. I’m trying to stay within the ZWO ecosystem as I may opt to upgrade to the ASIAIR in the future, unless Stellarmate/Astroberry end up working really well for me.

The retailer I plan to purchase from also got back to me and are recommending the -S version too. Considering I don’t have a filter wheel or USB focuser, I can probably manage the extra 60 grams. I’d be only slightly over 50% of the load capacity of the Skyguider.

Thanks again for your insight!

CS,
Mark

Well Written Respectful Supportive

wsg

Oct 25, 2021

Mark, I misunderstood your intended application and in that context I am unaware of usb problems with these cameras. I can't comment as to 120 mini use with windows drivers and PC performance because I guided with MGEN 2 while using a PC in a plastic box that connected to the camera by usb. A system that I can recommend to anyone to uprade away from as soon as possible. I also can't comment on guiding and shooting with a DSLR because I very quickly realized, as you have also, the advantages of dedicated astro cameras. One thing I can tell you is I have never had a single problem with any of my ZWO cameras including the mini's in use with my AirPro's and any IOS devices., in fact losing all the PC garbage and switching to ZWO and AirPro systems has made me a better astroimager.

scott

Mark Germani

Topic starter

Oct 25, 2021 · Edited: Oct 25, 2021

Hi Scott:

Thanks for your reply - the internet seems to be a bit vague about which version of the ASI120MM still has issues with Mac OS. I realize it should guide ok with the ASIAIR, even with Astroberry or Stellarmate, but it would be super cool if I could also do a teeny bit of planetary and EAA with it, but that might be asking too much.

I've emailed ZWO and the author of FireCapture to get them to weigh-in too. I'm thinking I might save myself some headaches with the MM-S, but we'll see.

At some point, I think I'll definitely grab a mono dedicated astro camera (ASI183MM Pro), but I'll probably keep the DSLR for broadband for a good long while, as the good colour astro cameras are $$$, and I never shoot from dark sites anyway.

CS,
Mark

Respectful Supportive

Radek Kaczorek

Oct 25, 2021

Both ASI120MM Mini and ASI120MM-S (USB 3.0) work ok with Astroberry. ASI120MM (USB 2.0) is unstable but can be flashed with firmware marked as "compatible", available on ZWO site. Flashing with this firmware improves camera performance, but it does not fix 100% issues - still it can drop frames and renders distorted images (very bad for guiding).

Interference with other ZWO cameras mentioned by @dkamen can be easily addressed by disconnecting driver for guiding camera. Otherwise it is shared between INDI and PHD2 which results in black banding and noise.

All of the above statements come from real life experience. I have used ASI120MM, replaced it with ASI120MM-S and now I use ASI 120MM Mini. These go well with ASI1600MM Pro and ASI2600MM Pro as main imaging cameras.

Clear Skies

Radek

Helpful Engaging

Mark Germani

Topic starter

Oct 25, 2021

Thanks Radek! If I might ask, why did you switch from the MM-S to the Mini?

Well Written Respectful

Radek Kaczorek

Oct 26, 2021 · Edited: Oct 26, 2021

@Mark Germani I have moved to ZWO OAG and ASI 120MM Mini is recommended by ZWO. It is also smaller in diameter so it suits better my setup.
I'm going to stay with 120MM-S for planetary photography though. It works fantastic, reaching 100 FPS easily on Astroberry with oaCapture. One thing to note - when capturing high FPS you need to use really fast SD card, save files to external drive or save to network drive over fast network (e.g. 1Gbps). Otherwise it can choke and cought ;-)

Helpful Concise

Mark Germani

Topic starter

Oct 26, 2021

Thanks everyone!

ZWO was super quick to get back to me. Here's their official position on the 120MM cameras:

"Except the old models ASI120MM/MC does not support Mac, the current ASI120MINI,ASI120MM-S,ASI120MC-S all support Mac."

So, it looks like I can go for the Mini after all. After weighing my setup last night with the Zenithstar 61 upgrade rings (200g heavier than the previous mounting ring) I'm thinking I should keep things as light as possible. I did hear back from Torsten at FireCapture, and he had his doubts about the Mini, but given the camera's primary application is guiding, I think I'll have to settle for "maybe planetary". It sounds like ASILive and oaCapture should work.

Thanks again to everyone who weighed-in here.

CS,
Mark

Well Written Helpful Respectful Concise Supportive

Mark Germani

Topic starter

Oct 30, 2021

Hey, just doubling-back on this topic quickly, does anyone know if I even be able to reach focus with the ASI120MM-S and the WO UniGuide 32? Just wondering if there's enough inward travel for this combo to work.

Anyone else out there using the ASI120MM-S for guiding with a small guidescope?

CS,
Mark