Beginner looking to optimize a large-budget single purchase for DSO

Hello,

I'm an absolute novice with respect to astrophotography as an activity, but on the technical side I'm quite well-versed in computational photography and image signal processing as I've published academic research and patents on CMOS/CCD denoising algorithms that are used commercially. Within astrophotography, I know there's a ton of things for me to learn and ideally it's probably more typical to organically increase my equipment complexity as I become more familiar with the field.

However, I'm in a unique situation where there's a significant one-time cash infusion coming and also a time constraint where there's a strong financial advantage for me to make any large purchases before year's end, so my somewhat naive/uninformed thinking is to go all-out on a single beefy "expert" system that will last me for years (maybe even a decade or more), and the budget is quite flexible (anything under $50K is doable, but I think it's probably gonna be $10-20K). Given all this, what would your suggestion be for the suite of equipment (telescope, mount, camera, etc.) I should look into for DSO imaging? Do you think there's any benefit to consider getting two setups - a simpler system and an advanced system, to help with the transition?

I apologize for any awkward vibe this post gives off but my predicament and interest are genuine. Thanks very much in advance for your insights, and looking forward to participating and learning from you all in the months and years ahead!

Without specifying any particular piece of equipment, I would advise good, but mainstream equipment. You might be tempted to go get a scope or mount that has awesome specs, but is so expensive there are very few people who are able to give you advice. For example, with your budget, you could get a Planewave scope and mount. But if you post on a forum for advice, there aren't many people who can help you. And as a beginner, you will want a community of people who can help you achieve your goals.

Good luck. This will be a fun post to watch.

-Nathan

Hi zdyn,

An intriguing question. A sort of "Brewster's Million's" for Astrophotography.

I am 18months into to hobby (having had a career as a professional astronomer) so I come from a different "experienced but not experienced" background.

I started small with un-modified DSLR and star-tracker, but quickly gained more kit - including building my own observatory. Being retired helped a lot with finding the time. I would still recommend the "start small" approach for anyone new to the hobby.

Having said that, in your situation, there is one further consideration. Where would you use the rig? Do you live under dark skies, or would need to travel to do your AP? Would you consider building a simple observatory where you could permanently house the rig - vastly increasing the ease of set-up (and utilisation of the scope)?

Notwithstanding the above, having recently been through the learning curve myself, I would probably recommend 120-150mm APO refractor + full frame mono CMOS + filter wheel/OAG+ guide camera/focuser and mount to accommodate at least 40% more weight. Plus software to reduce. Refractors are the easiest scopes to use and maintain for the astronomical, but not photographically inexperienced. One of this aperture will give you both the light grasp and focal length to fill your needs for a number of years. You sound like you can handle the processing work flow from a mono camera, which gives you the narrow band imaging option - important if you live under light polluted skies.

As to brands, go with well-known, trusted brands with good availability. I use a Skywatcher Esprit APO 100mm refractor and it's great. I would dearly love, but can't afford a 150mm version,. ZWO fare a good reliable brand for CMOS cameras + OAG/filter wheel (I use them and have had no problems - other than a flange freezing off at -8C). Investing in the ZWO environment allow you to use the ZWO ASIAir to control everything, makingan observing session very easy. The ZWO community is also very helpful and the company are quite responsive to the community feedback. Mounts, lots of good brands here, I use the Skywatcher EQ6R-Pro, but you would probably need to invest in a mount with more capacity Skywatcher EQ8 or CEM60.

Once you add the telescope, cameras (don't forget the guide camera), mount, filter wheel + filters (7 good filters are not cheap), guiding system you are certainly getting close to your budget. And that's before you build your observatory. That takes you to USD50000.

But the approach will depend on your location. This sort of kit would really benefit from a permanently housed location.

Brian

Thanks for your very helpful perspective, Nathan. I agree that the community aspect will be key, so more mainstream brands/equipment makes a lot of sense. A couple other factors that might be relevant:

1) Planning on almost exclusively backyard usage, so portability isn't too much of an issue. However, I will be under mostly Bortle 7 skies which isn't ideal but seems still workable from what I've gathered.

2) I'd like the control and acquisition aspect of the system to be as customizable as possible, either through existing computer software or more ideally, through APIs that I can program automated functions into. For example, I'd like the ability to send a signal to turn on and off the capturing process based on a custom python script that I write (that for example detects radar cloud coverage). I don't know how much the motorized guidance can typically be customized/tuned, but it'd be great to be able to do real-time motor control based on custom feedback signals I can create (for example, from custom automated analysis of raw images).

Maybe this helps narrows down the range of mainstream products available?

Thanks!

Are you considering a permanent setup or does it need to be portable? Also generally visual and imaging are apples and oranges. Visual people want lots of aperture so the eye can see details and imagers don't need so much because the camera gathers the light. Visual systems usually are simpler and don't cost as much. Imaging systems even though are mostly less aperture will cost more because of the equipment need to produce the image.

If we assume your primarily going to want to be an imager (I'm assuming that based on you being on this site.) Then a couple of things need to be considered before buying. Your physical capability governs the size of the gear and what you use to transport it for a portable setup. If on the other hand your going to permanently setup in the backyard or some other site you have, the physical part and transportation is also less important.

Visual gear portability it's the same thing. Your physical capability governs the size of the gear and what you use to transport it . If on the other hand your going to permanently setup in the backyard or some other site you have, the physical part and transportation is less important.

There is something to be said for having both imaging and visual gear. A lot of people setup and start their imager then while it is running they use the visual scope to scan the skies. I tend not to do much visual as I'm an imager who if out with a group sets up my imager and while it's automatically clicking away I look through other's visual scopes and visit.

Note, my imaging scope is fairly big and I can do some nice visual work with it. It's like having a SUV . The SUV likely will get you up the hill quite nicely, but the Jeep will do it better.

Also, hauling gear out to a remote site can get old so less gear is better as you will tend to go more often.

If you live in an area where it's dark like out in the country then you can make use of you gear more often at home . Especially visual gear. Imagers can do some very nice work given todays gear and filters that are available even in light polluted areas.

Imager's tend to be also interested in the photography end of things and the astrophotography side of astronomy is more time consuming and encompassing. Most imagers do very nice work using less than 10K worth of gear. Most visual people less than half that.

So…answer these questions I've talked about here and we as a group can steer you in the right direction. Of note: As a group we tend to tout the gear we have and are fond of and even will suggest our dream gear LOL. So in the end you will need to decide what direction to go. We can help to prevent the mistakes made by those entering the hobby of which there are a number.

1) Physicality.
2) Visual or imager or both. If both what percentage of time in each.
3) If going portable transportation.
4) where you live…country suburbs or in town.
5) For imagers…willingness to spend a goodly amount of time learning the programs and processing theory.
6) Astronomy can be a lonely hobby…so willingness to join a club is helpful and socializing with them at times.

If I would have such a budget flexibility , I would perhaps get :
-Harmonic drive mount with encoders (it is light, no need for counterweight or balancing )
-150mm APO refractor (Takahashi or APM LZOS or TEC …

with focal reducer
-11" SCT (like Celestron EDGE HD) with reducer and Starizona HyperStar
- FF CMOS mono camera
-Astrodon or Chroma RGB and ultra narrowband filters

But that's just my dream having on mind my own experience and current equipment and. interests I have.
Generally it depends whether you want to have permanent setup , or you will be traveling
to dark areas. I would always suggest to beginner in DSO photography to start with refractor.
It. is not that one would not be successful with other scopes , just it takes a bit bigger dose of masochism .

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your reply and suggestions. As I just replied above, this will indeed be much more of a "permanent" fixture. Very naive question but I'd imagine rain will be a problem for these telescopes/accessories, right? Do most people just haul their heavy telescopes back and forth, or are there retractable covers that can be purchased? Seems a bit of a hassle to always be on guard to protect a high investment - it'd be a shame that one forgetful day, or a random unanticipated shower in the middle of the night ends up destroying your equipment.

I've been looking into 150mm's - any particular brands that you'd suggest? Also, it seems like Meade makes some large and pricey equipment but they seem more "self-contained" and less customizable and "hackable" - is that assessment accurate?

1-The first item is a no-brainer- get a premium mount - it is the single most important item (e.g., AP or Paramount MX+ GEM)

2- Get a nice Apo triplet refractor along with a SCT as a second scope if you want two scopes. Depending on scope, you will need guide scope/OAG and guide camera.

3- CMOS mono camera

These are the big items. Other items ( like power source, cables, filter wheel, filters etc) are based on the type of setup you want (permanent, mobile) and type of images you want to take.

———————————————
More specific ideas:
1- Astro Physics 1100 mount- $10,000 (essentially guaranteed for life and great support). They also make an 1600 mount - I have the 1100 in my permanent observatory
2- William Optics New Fluoroscope 156mm $7200 (a number of good companies and scope apertures to choose from like Stellarvue, Takahashi). I have a Stellarvue and an Esprit as well as a C11"EdgeHD. I would consider the Esprit a slight downgrade to the others.
3- Camera- I have both the ASI2600 and ASI6200. The 2600 is about $2500 or $3600 if you get it with the filters and filter wheel. You might like that better that the full frame ASI6200.

Finally, the ROR. You can see my observatory pictures on Astrobin. My ROR is from Pier tech. The cost can range widely depending on the size you want. They are expensive but extremely well-built.

Get a good mount, a really good one with payload up to 100 lbs/50kg. The best ones aren't from the usual (US) suspects but I expect they are pretty rare over the Pond. Don't get a SCT unless is made to spec (hard to come by). Big APOs are waste of money. If I had the option I'd get AstroPhysics's 10" Mak but I guess they are hard to come by as well and rarer than hen's teeth. Maybe a Ritchey Cretien from a reputable company. And a 4"APO from Takahashi/Astro-Physiscs/Pentax unless you can find one with LOMO optics from some other vendor (Markus Ludes's possibly). Camera-wise there are a number of choices, being both OSC or mono, depending on the scope you'll end up with. First sort out the scope then tackle the sensor, that is my advice.

Hi zdyn,

You will need to protect the kit from the elements.

The "simplest" observatory would be a roll-off roof affair. There are a number of designs around. I designed my own, because it had to fit with the design of my house. [I may have the only steep pitched gable ended roll-off roof observatory on the planet - images on my AB page].

Alternatively you can purchase a pre-fabricated kit for a dome. But this will depend where you live. I really don't know how much a pre-fab dome costs [if you have to ask, you can't afford it] but a number of US sites e.g. Planewave offer a number of possible solutions.

For a 150mm refractor, I would recommend the Skywatcher Esprit 150mm. It retails for around $6700. The Tak refractors are a little better, but availability (at least here in NZ) is difficult and they cost a lot more. Given your budget of $20000, and the need to spend roughly the same (or a little more) on the mount and imaging train, I put a limit on the 'scope budget of $6666

The ASI6200MM Mono would costs around $4000, with filter wheel, off-axis guider, camera and ASIAir adding another $1000. Filters will set you back anything from $1000 (Optolong) to $3000 (Astrodon).

An Skywatcher EQ8 mount with pier tripod costs around $5000.

So Esprit 150mm + EQ8 mount + ZWO Mono Camera + imaging train end up costing $20000-$23000.

It is certainly true that any system is only as good as its weakest link, and it is also true that some of the suggestions above eg Tak refractor, Planewave CDK, Astrodon filters, AP mount are superior versions of the above. But at a cost premium. And possibly a complexity premium (eg the Planewave CDK, Celestron, which will have varying degrees of collimation issues).

I was simply trying to stick to your $20k budget by spending approximately the same on each component (i.e. what is the best and simplest purchase for $6500 in each). But please note that I don't own an Esprit 150 or an EQ8 mount - although I do own less expensive versions in the same line. In part my recommendations are made of the basis of the company's other products, but also what I see on Astrobin taken with this equipment. For me both the Skywatcher Esprit and EQ6-R mount have been very reliable and perform very well. This is important as, living in South Island NZ, support is a long way away. I do own the ZWO ASI6200MM with ZWO ASIAir, filter wheel (used with Optolong filers) and an OAG. I am very happy with this imaging train, and I routinely obtain 0.3-0.4 arcsec rms tracking from the above. As good as I can do in 3-4arcsec seeing. Sure, I would love Astrodon filters - but bang for buck the Optolong filters do just fine.

But this leaves you with $30000 to spend on your observatory. For me the single most expensive part of my set-up was the roll-off roof shed. But it saves an hour set-up and tear down each night, and allows me to observe in conditions (and get good data - viz my latest pic of NGC300) where otherwise I might not have bothered. Besides when I sell the house, I plan to market it as a possible sauna with a view.

I hope this is helpful, but please bear in mind it is only based on my (very) recent experience.

CS Brian

I agree the mount is the most important aspect of imaging. There are number of very good mounts to consider. My personal dream mount and recommendation would be is an Astro Physics Mach2GTO German Equatorial Mount (MACH2GTO) with encoders set up on a pier with the mounting plate for the scope ready to go at around $14,000 or $15000 . The advantage beyond it being one of the best you can buy and it's value in the future will depreciate less than most any other on the market. The bad is there may be a waiting list for them so you would have to search around for one.

Other mounts are Software Bisque Paramount MX (I have no personal experience with this mount) at around $12000 set up. Planet Wave makes a L-350 direct drive mount in that $10000 to $13000 range. 10Micron GM 2000 HPS II Combi at about $17000 to $18000 set up.

These prices I quoted are set up and ready to go so when shop for them add the other goodies needed to get it ready for the scope.

I don't sell any mounts so when you shop around make sure the mount is in stock and the prices I said were best guesses when it was all said and done.

Telescopes I know are Astro Physics, Stellarvue, and William Optics. We will ignore the William Optics as it is an import. In fact I would ignore all imported scopes because of service issues. Astro Physics makes some nice stuff I used a few in the past. They were in the 130mm to 150mm (triplets) range. It's been awhile but I thought they were very nice. I think they also have a waiting list. Stellarvue Has some nice scopes I own a SVA130mm Triplet and the quality and optics are excellent. Well beyond my ability to image to their full potential. I believe they also are back ordered. There was a SVX150mm for sale a few weeks back as the guy was selling it to pay for the SVX180mm he was ordering. Prices are between 5K and 8k. The scope is not as important as the mount BTW.

Programs to learn PHD2 and I suggest looking at N.I.N.A. telescope control SW . For processing PixInsight. (these my preferences and there are other image control programs )

Cameras and filters as said above and they are a whole subject on their own. Save out about 5k for that.

An observatory should to be considered for the level gear your looking to buy. Your looking at a starting price of about 5k plus the concrete pad. There are some a little cheaper as there are some more expensive. Exploradome is an example.

If the choice is between any equipment or the wife's new kitchen then it is a no-brainer.

When I read your posts I saw many red flags. It is very very unlikely you can go from an absolute novice to producing some top-end images in less than a few years. Dollars won't accelerate things. So you need have a strategy to gain the skills as quickly as possible and test/confirm your long-term interest.

If you are learning, and you are Bortle 7, then a 80mm refractor scope will be the max you want. The bigger the scope the slower you will learn (and there is a lot to master). Down track the refractor can be a guidescope on a larger setup. Such a telescope is not a compromise, look at what is achievable by Gary Lopez. Skywatcher EQ6-R Pro is hugely popular with excellent support resources (it looks horrible btw). It's cheap enough to leave outside with a rain cover. A 80mm refractor is light enough to setup in a few minutes. The backend equipment (flatteners, filter-wheel, filters, cooled camera, electronic focuser, etc.) can be re-used, and there are lots of excellent choices and that will be the most expensive part of the initial "learning" setup.

I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm just give you the best chance to maintain and grow your interest.

C(Bortle 7)S Rod

Appreciate everyone's contributions here - a somewhat wide range of suggestions which I will all take into consideration. Rod, thanks very much for your cautious sentiment and constructive criticisms, which seem fair and reasonable. Thanks especially for linking to Gary Lopez's amazing work - it's truly inspiring he was able to achieve that (and win prestigious awards as well) using what seems to be a pretty modest set of equipment. I'm sure it'll take a very long time before I can get to anything close to that level of results with similar or even much better equipment.

That being said, this unique financial predicament I'm in essentially earmarks these funds for immediate tangible equipment purchases (not for home improvement etc. unfortunately), and it's basically a use it or lose it situation, but there are also other domains besides astrophotography the funds can be used for so I have some flexibility…

All in all it seems like I'm hearing that a good refractor (maybe 100mm or so) and a decent/high quality mount might be a good starting point.

Appreciate everyone's contributions here - a somewhat wide range of suggestions which I will all take into consideration. Rod, thanks very much for your cautious sentiment and constructive criticisms, which seem fair and reasonable. Thanks especially for linking to Gary Lopez's amazing work - it's truly inspiring he was able to achieve that (and win prestigious awards as well) using what seems to be a pretty modest set of equipment. I'm sure it'll take a very long time before I can get to anything close to that level of results with similar or even much better equipment.

That being said, this unique financial predicament I'm in essentially earmarks these funds for immediate tangible equipment purchases (not for home improvement etc. unfortunately), and it's basically a use it or lose it situation, but there are also other domains besides astrophotography the funds can be used for so I have some flexibility...

All in all it seems like I'm hearing that a good refractor (maybe 100mm or so) and a decent/high quality mount might be a good starting point.

You have pretty much nailed it.

The mount is the key and if your time is limited to have the gear in your hands or least the money spent for it. Your going to have to look for what is available. Call around for Astro Physics (if it is in your price range) and if any of the smaller are available. I understand Software Bisque Paramount MX + and their MyT mount that is (about 7K). The Sky-Watcher EQ8-Rh Pro GoTo Equatorial Mount with Renishaw Encoder and Pier Tripod at 8K looks interesting but no track record I know of.
But be sure to get a price that is a mount ready to go price . In these upper priced mounts you can expect a few add on's needed.

There are some decent lower priced mounts as talked about in some of the above post in the 1600 to 3800 price range. They start with the Skywatcher EQ6-R Pro about $1700, and the iOptron CEM70 about $3400 come to mind. A lot of people like the Losmandy mounts, I don't but likely that personal preference.

At this point if you pinned me down I would say get one of the Software Bisgue Paramounts as they are excellent and available. That is if you can't find a Astro Physics MACH2GTO or the 1100GTO on the upper price range. In the lower price range and the iOptron GEM70.

A disclaimer: I own and use a iOptron CEM60. The CEM70 replaced it.

Telescopes most good refractors have a wait list so best I can suggest is looking for a Astro-Physics130mm f6.3 StarFire GTX "Gran Turismo" with 3.5" Focuser (130GTX)$6,990.00

Tele Vue NP101is Nagler-Petzval APO Refractor Telescope

You might call Stellarvue and talk to Alex or Vic about availability of their scopes. I have their SVA130 mm Triplet and love it. The newest are SVX130 Triplets I think around 6K.

I agree with almost everything written here.

But no one has asked you an important question: What do you want to photograph?

For planets and tiny DSO you need a long focal length. An SCT would be right here. Here you can get rid of a lot of money. But handling it is not easy. Mostly this is an advanced telescope.
For medium DSO the APO is right. It's almost the wild card for astrophotography, but you can't really photograph small or large objects satisfactorily with it.
For large objects - many nebulae, Andromeda galaxy - you need a short focal length. Either a small refractor around 400 mm or even a telephoto lens for normal photography.

So in your place I would buy three telescopes. Then you can start with the small one (maybe on a travel mount like the iOptron Skyguider Pro), soon add the medium refractor and then go with the skill to the big SCT.

And then there is the solar photography …

Oef the things I'd do with such a budget.

But, yea.. like some mentioned. It depends what you want to shoot. And just throwing money at problems you don't have yet, might not automatically make things work.

Either way,

I'd splash out for:

Skywatcher Esprit 100 (the 550mm focal length allows for a lot of targets)
Skywatcher EQ6-R Pro (Or maybe even the EQ8 or Ioptron CEM70, but those are more for permanent setups)
ZWO Fullframe cooled camera. Probably a 2600, either Mono or Colour depending on what you want to shoot. (or get both) Or the 6200 if you want to splash out.
ZWO Filterwheel for 2" filters
2" Filters, mono filters in H, Sii, Oiii and/or Optolong L-Extreme for colour.
Either an Off axis guider, or guidescope
ZWO Focusser
ZWO ASI 290 or 174 as the guide camera.

it's a setup that has been mentioned on here a few times already, and for good reason.

And personally I'd run it all through a ZWO ASIAIR Plus. (or pro)
If you don't mind being "stuck" in the ZWO system and don't have other brand already (Which you probably don't have, considering you're new at this), Running it through the ZWO Asiair takes a way a lot of the headaches you can/will face as a novice. And makes the process a lot more "plug and play"

Or, another option is to go for a Celestron EdgeHD 925, instead of the Skywatcher Esprit.
You can add the Hyperstar option to the Celestron. Allowing you to use it as a 500mm aswel, getting 2 scopes in one.
+ the Celestron and the ZWO 174 or 290 can make for an alright planetary setup if you ever want to do that.

Next of course, the software.
If you want to splash out for Pixinsight or AstroPixelProcessor. Or stick to Deepskystacker.

Nice problem to have but a difficult one to manage. There are a couple of aspects here. You have experience coding and processing image data which is a part of the battle in producing nice images. The biggest part is gathering the image data and you can only get better at it as time passes.

Having been through some challenges over the last 18months as a newbie I would absolutely start out with a mount that can hold heavy payloads - this will give you options many years into the future and save you countless dollars. Look at something that can carry 30-40+ kilos. If you are interested in things like galaxies, you will work your way though the larger ones then they get smaller and smaller requiring bigger scopes.

Scopewise I would definitely look at a good refractor to start with (you can get some nice galaxies and nebulas) something that is forgiving and allows you to really understand how to work the software and equipment together. I would recommend a triplet with an aperture of around 70-80mm. As you have a time constraint on financing, maybe look at an RC scope for when you are ready to transition to something more complex and gives you a lot more reach. I will not comment on brands as I do not know all and am even farther from having used all but I would recommend finding brands that are reputable that have a large support community (users). This is is going to be key in progressing quickly.

As you live in Bortle 7 skies I recommend going mono if you have time to image 3-7 channels for an image. You will bel it through the light pollution and save you a lot of pain in understanding how to beat it. I suspect that you maybe able to cope quite quickly with a OSC though, so could be a nice option - still recommend mono even though I don’t own one yet.

Start with a good mount that gives you options and get a small refractor with good glass. There are a load of other bits but you’ll understand these as time passes.

I hope this helps without pointing out any brands.

CS and goodluck
Brad

Your budget is swell. Your problem is the timeframe. Much of the good equipment is on backorder. Of course, you can order at a vendor and pay in advance but then you have no idea when (and if) stuff will arrive. The problem is, if you buy now it might not be what you want three years from now. There is no one best telescope.

I‘ve been doing this for about 1.5 years now, but I‘ve gone through quite some equipment. Some thoughts:

- You‘re new to the hobby, so don‘t buy used. You don‘t know what to look out for, or how to service the pre-loved (and especially the pre-unloved) equipment. And in my experience there certainly are black sheep around.
- Mount is the most important factor. Get the best you want to afford. Budget 75% of your expenses. For deep-sky AP, the quality of the optics is tertiary to mount quality and mechanical quality of the whole setup.
- Payload of 30kgs would be good for future growth.
- Those AP mounts sure are nice - but they have a two year wait time. 10Micron wait times are shorter. I got one and it‘s „the last mount I will need“. SBIG seem good, too. I don‘t know about supply and you are limited in software with them.
- Start with a refractor. Jumping to mirrored scopes was like hitting a wall for me. My Esprit 100 is nice. At 550mm FL it was a very forgiving starter telescope. Or get an 80mm ED doublet now and order something like a Takahashi TOA-130 or an APM/LZOS 130 for later.
- If you want „perfect“ results, an RC is not a telescope for a beginner (still struggling with mine. It‘s not the scope, it‘s me).
- Very fast telescopes like the RASA look very appealing on paper and can be great fun but they do require a lot of work to set up.
- Generally, from Bortle 7 shooting small galaxies needs very long integration times. Consider limiting yourself to narrowband targets. Many of those are big, so you do not need a huge focal length.
- Both leading manufacturers of CMOS cameras have QC problems: QHY in software and USB connectivity, ZWO with sensor mounting. Consider to shell out for a CCD with a KAF-16200 sensor instead.
- Full-frame cameras with small pixels like the Apx60, the QHY600 and the ASI6200 require va huge amount of work to get working with good corner performance. If you get one, expect to have an ongoing project and to crop heavily at first.
- Think of a CMOS camera as a replaceable commodity. Sensor technology advances quickly currently.
- Get the biggest, best filters you can afford. You will want 3-4.5nm narrowband filters in Bortle 7.
- If you have space and can budget a ROR that will probably increase your imaging time by a factor of 10. I have a Telegizmo cover (no good space here to set up a ROR or done) and it was the single best purchase I made.
- Concerning community support: If you buy premium equipment (say, aforementioned set of a Planewave L350+CDK) this will be far less important because those manufacturers (or vendors) will support you when you have problems. You don‘t read here about people‘s problems with AP mounts because they ask AP for help, not some dude on the net.

Will it really be years before I can get my hands on a new scope? I know people have advised against newbies getting secondhand, but if I had to, are there any good second-hand markets that are trustworthy?

What is the reason that smaller refractor scopes are more forgiving? If I’m planning primarily to shoot big nebula at least in the beginning, is 80mm more advantageous than a 100 or 120/130?

also, if I’m shooting at Bortle 7, is collecting more or less light advantageous? Is there a trade-off between SNR and sensor signal saturation?

It depends. You can get lucky if you shop around for the telescopes internationally (I‘ve just ordered two Takahashi telescopes from Austria with a delivery time of about three weeks, my 10Micron mount took 5 months from
order). The APM states Christmas 2022 as availability for their 130mm APO. The Tak CCA250 is currently not produced because of supply shortages. The AP Mach2 mount is probably about 2 years waiting time. The Tec 140 should be about 18 months.

Also, some vendors do have premium mounts and sometimes scopes in stock (not AP, though): I know of one 10Micron 4000 directly available in Germany. But in general, there are waiting times for new telescopes and premium mounts and there always have been. Covid has made things far worse.

With used, I‘ve made one good experience with astromart and a bad one in a German forum. It‘s safer to get used from a vendor (Markus Ludes from APM sometimes has some very premium used scopes available, as does Baader). But even then you have to bet on availability before your timeframe runs out.

So if you need to get rid of the money now, place an order for the premium equipment and purchase a good, small apo (RedCat, Vixen 55FL, Borg 55 [Esprit 80, FSQ-85]) on a good and available portable mount (Avalon M-Zero? Vixen? RST-135?) to practice now and use later as a portable setup.

What is the reason that smaller refractor scopes are more forgiving? If I’m planning primarily to shoot big nebula at least in the beginning, is 80mm more advantageous than a 100 or 120/130?

also, if I’m shooting at Bortle 7, is collecting more or less light advantageous? Is there a trade-off between SNR and sensor signal saturation?

The lighter, smaller equipment puts less stress on all components: The mount is not as stressed, so tolerances need not be as tight. The smaller FL with bigger pixel scales is much more forgiving of tracking errors (wether mount and user induced - you will cause plenty of the latter) and optical aberrations. It’s easier to figure small lenses than large ones. Aberrations (especially CA) are easier to control with smaller apertures, so you can get a faster telescope with the same amount of correction or a better corrected one at the same f/number.

To get good images with a 60mm refractor is a serious effort. At 120-130mm you must do very many things very correctly and need very good equipment. To get good images at above 1000mm focal length with a mirrored scope, you need to do very many things with excessive attention to detail.

It is always better to collect more light for more SNR. The thing that helps most is a dark sky. Failing to have that, you need to overcome the noise from your bright sky with very many exposures (think 12h+ for broadband galaxy shots). For a single exposure, in a light polluted environment you can keep it somewhat shorter. With narrowband, the difference is not quite as pronounced.

I think based on the information you've gathered here check out the mounts that look promising to you and start calling around. After finding which are currently in stock or in what you consider available in a reasonable amount of time come back here with your results for comment.

That done start looking where in your yard you would place an Observatory and search the web for either building a roll-off (if your handy) or buying one of the dome types.

Next is finding the scope or at least a temporary one to learn on. I'll repeat suggesting calling around to see what is in stock. I like my Stellarvue scopes so again I suggest calling them and talking to Alex or Vic about their scopes delivery dates. Certainly call Astro Physics ( About their 130 F6.3 Starfire GTX) and Tele Vue (About their 127mm, f/5.3 APO (Nagler-Petzval) Astrograph Refractor) .

Cameras should be matched up with your scope to a certain degree. Suggestions for them are better settled after the scope is known. However, I suggest looking at ZWOASI2600 and ZWOASI6200 in mono and color versions. Other brand cameras have the same sensors so could be optionally considered (Like QHY). In fact you might consider one of each as both methods of imaging have their own attributes. Filters are a major consideration for Mono cameras and the needed electronic filter wheel. Astrodon filters or Chroma filters have the best reputation and support. Color camera users tend to stick with just a couple of filters Light polution (like the Optolong L-Pro) and a dual band (like the Optolong L-Extreme).

Clearly the core purchase here is a capable, accurate mount…….with a balance of physical useability…..what you can move/lift and manage can’t exceed the reward of the experience or you simply won’t use it. I’m 53 and in ok shape so set up and break down of a 100 EQ is pretty routine.

What you want/plan on capturing is dependent on focal length and aperture. Large nebulae as you indicated mean short focal length. My suggestion would be a RASA. The 8” version will provide you a huge sampling of targets like a short APO with the advantage of comparably massive aperture…….fast captures of tons of data.

End of the day, you’ll probably end up with two, maybe three scopes and as many cameras each optimized by spec for the target and sampling rate.

Focusers, filters, filter wheels, mount adapters, cables, guide scopes, finders, interfaces will all eat up your budget……the above will easily get you to $20k…..with your initial 1 scope/mount/camera and required accessories consuming half the budget.

Good luck on your journey and most important, remember to have fun. I stand by the RASA as your first scope…..there’s simply no substitute for aperture!

Let's make another suggestion:
If you need to get rid of a lot of money quickly, maybe buy some good whiskey.
ts value increases over the years, and it's no problem to sell it later. That way you have spent your money and can enter the hobby of astrophotography in a relaxed way. When you need new equipment, you simply sell a few bottles and use the proceeds to buy your dream telescope.

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