A PSA/Rant/Warning/Opinion on CLS Filters, Light Pollution Filters, and Tri or Quad Bandpass Filters

C.SandAstroÅmazerArun HTony GondolaCharles Hagen
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C.Sand avatar
Summary: These products are misleading in their marketing and do not return a result that is worth your money.



This is intended to be a warning message that I'd copy/paste to people considering buying one of these filters, but I figured I'd post it as well in case it helps anyone. This discussion has come up a few times in different places online and I don't want to keep typing it out, so here it is for me to link to. I don't mean to insult anyone for buying these or call any companies bad because they offer these filters. I'm of the opinion that the consumer gets the (very) short end of the stick here since a lot of the marketing around these filters is very misleading, and it doesn't help that a decent portion of it is true in specific cases. Namely the fact that these filters worked pretty well 20+ years ago, and have been rapidly falling off almost entirely due to the LED. This is all intended to be for astrophotography, do visual how you like you heretics. All this is intended to be in reference to DSLR/Mirrorless or OSC cams. If you're using one of these filters on mono I'm guessing you know more than me or are too far gone to save.

I believe the overall information of this post is accurate, and while my numbers are probably decently close, some generalizations I make may not be. Feel free to correct/add to in the comments.


CLS Filters

I'll be starting with CLS (city light suppresion)/light pollution filters. 20+ years ago these things were pretty nice. As I'm sure most people know we used to have a lot more sodium vapor lamps which produced light in that 589nm range. This was great for astronomy, 589nm is pretty easy to supress and pretty far away from anything we really care about, namely Ha, Sii, and Oiii (656nm, 671nm and 673nm, and 501nm). This puts this product in a great position - a widely had problem with a relatively simple fix. Everyone's happy. Unfortunately this was 20+ years ago. Everyone and anyone who's something these days uses LED's, and boy do we love our LED's! Here's the first of all my sciency stuff: Looking at the graph included in the introduction of this paper in Nature [1], you can get a rough visualization of what our light pollution looks like. This data is from NOAA, specifically the LED Lamp Spectra here [2]. I've copied a version of that chart with wavelength ranges 400-699nm, and relative light pollution values from 0 to 1. For my purposes here the actual values of light pollution don't really matter, rather their relative intensities. 


That vertical dotted line isn't a mistake, that's the poorly added reference for where the sodium vapor emmision line at 589 is, for easier visualization. This is to show that there isn't a single emmision line to filter out. Meanwhile, if we look at CLS/Light pollution filter charts, they seem to imply that there's a big source of light pollution they're cutting out. Here is use Astronomik and Optolong, they were just the first two results, the rest look relatively similar.

[3]

[4]

If you compare the CLS charts vs the actually Light Pollution spectrum chart, the CLS filters do cut out some light pollution. The issue arises when you consider the purpose of these CLS filters. If you wanted to take a narrowband image - you wouldn't use this filters. If you wanted to take a "true color" image (which is a whole debate in itself), you couldn't use these filters. So these filters intended purpose is for broadband targets which the user accepts they won't have an accurate represenation of. This is fine, if you like the look these filters give you that's perfectably acceptable. I would heavily suggest that anyone looking to use these filters looks at the spectra of their intended target and considers what they're losing. For a specific example, here's the spectra of the Pleiades [5]. 


Approximating our bandpasses as 450-540nm and 640-700nm, these CLS filters would be cutting out a significant portion of the Pleiades! Ignoring the loss of color information, this just cuts out so much signal! As per the Lowell Observatory in 1912, the source of the spectra of the Pleiades is most likely the stars themselves [6]. In 1912 they weren't so sure, but it's pretty common knowledge in our hobby today that the class of nebula labeled as reflection nebula reflect light, most often of a star. Stars of course are well known broadband emitters. I think I've been beating a dead horse for a while now, but there are plenty more examples if needed.

If you wanted to us a CLS filter as a boost for an emission nebula, that would "work". Clearly these filters do further isolate the emission lines, but there are a number of issues here which will be expanded on in the next section on Tri/Quadband filters. The major two issues are the lack of an accurate representation of signal (as mentioned), and the inability to differentiate between emission lines, giving you what I lovingly refer to as a "sausage nebula".

Plus, its not like the light pollution disapears from the rest of the image, these CLS filters still pass light pollution.

To sum it up for CLS filters: This has all been a common sense-esq argument. I haven't delved into numbers really but I don't think it's difficult to see that while CLS filters kinda supress light pollution, they also negatively impact the acquisition of broadband targets.


Edit: What those finding sucess with these filters are likely seeing is an increase in contrast. This varies between filter to filter as different areas will have different spectra of light pollution sources, and so one filter may cut out a peak while another includes it. This also commonly results in a purple hue in images, most easily seen in galxies. This is of course due to the fact that green is largely filtered out, with red and blue being passed.
(Added after considering Rock Veregin's comment.)



Tri/Quadband Filters

Once again these filters don't neccessarily lie, they do have three of four narrowbandpasses. The issue arises in their use case and performance once more. Of the emission lines to choose from we have... [7, also myself since you can just do the math with the Balmer series and such] 
- H-alpha 656.3nm
- Oiii 500.7nm (actually a doublet emission line with 495.9nm, though we ussually just refer to the 500.7nm figure because it is nearly 3x more intense)
- Sii 671.6 and 673.1 nms (another doublet but we don't care since they're close enough that we don't need to choose between the lines with a 3nm bandpass)
- Nii 654.8 and 658.4 nms
- Helium 468.6 nms
- H-beta 486.1 nms

In practice, we can find a number of filters passing the H-alpha, Oiii, and H-beta lines. This is the most common combination, with some filters having more emission lines included. For reference I looked at the Antlia Triband, Altair Triband, Optolong L-eNhance (which is actually marketed as a duoband filter), IDAS NB1, and finally the Radian Triad Ultra Quad-Band Filter. That last one was mostly included for the absurdity of the name, "Triad Ultra Quad-Band".

Of these lines H-alpha and Oiii are almost always the main lines considered for duoband filters. This is because they're bright and in different parts of the spectrum. Notice as well that Neon is at 654.8 and 658.4. Awfully close to H-alpha! Turns out this doesn't impact the majority of objects. Due to the abundance of objects with strong H-alpha, and the relative rarity Neon, for the most part if you're shooting Neon you've sought it out. This is all to say that any claim of "extended bandpasses to capture H-alpha and Nii" are providing a weak and misleading reason for wider (cheaper) bandpasses. This applies for advertising grouping H-alpha and Sii together, or Oiii and H-beta as well.

Quick side note, another reason for wide bandpasses that's often given is functionality for fast (f/2 for example) systems. While true that sufficiently wide bandpasses will ensure functionality at fast focal ratios, this is a convient excuse for more lax quality controll and cheaper production. Having worked in filter production, it is signficantly easier to hit wider specs.

In the case of which the filters actually do have isolated bandpasses for whatever combination of H-alpha, Nii, Sii, Oiii, or H-beta, you're still better off with a duoband filter. The first issue is seperation of emission lines. This can be passed off as artistic choice, but it is something that should be seriously considered when creating an image. If you're shooting with (for example) a triband filter passing H-alpha, Oiii, and H-beta (arguably the most common example), you're capturing H-alpha in red, and Oiii + H-beta in green/blue. There is no seperation of color between H-Beta and Oiii, and no way (without a neat fact mentioned later) to isolate Oiii. The same goes for H-alpha Oiii and Sii. No way to seperate H-alpha and Sii. The jist of this argument is that you will not end up with an image that is properly manipulateable it will effectively be a duoband image since you can't isolate emission lines. To be clear, this is perfectly fine if you intend to capture the image that way, however the true failure of this filters is when we consider the SNR of the image.

Without further adue, the true crime of these filters is the addition of the H-beta bandpass. H-alpha and H-beta have the extact same spatial structure. This means that where this is H-alpha, there is H-beta; and where this is H-beta, there is H-alpha. The important detail hinted at above is that in the vast majority of circumstances, H-beta is roughly 0.35x the intensity of H-alpha [8*]. This means you can litterally sperate out your H-alpha data, multiply it by 0.35, and with near accuracy simulate H-beta. The benifits of this is simply cutting out the H-beta emission line. To display the benifits, let us take two idealized filters, one duoband and one triband. The duoband will be an H-alpha and Oiii filter, and the Triband a H-alpha, H-beta, and Oiii filter. These filters have perfect 1nm bandpasses. Taking into account our light pollution data from before, the duoband filter will have 0.21L (Oiii) + 0.27L (H-alpha) = 0.48L. These are the normalized light pollution values from the chart. The triband filter has 0.21L (Oiii) + 0.27L (H-alpha) + 0.15L (H-beta) = 0.63L. As we can see, the triband filter recives more light pollution due to the increased bandpass. As mentioned above, we can achive the same effective H-beta signal by multiplying our H-alpha by 0.35, thus the triband is just letting in more light pollution. Furthermore, since we have seperated Oiii and H-alpha, we can achive an HaHbOiii image by assigning the artificial H-beta to one of the three color channels (this could be done by subtracting out 0.35*H-alpha from the mixed Oiii/H-beta in the triband, but at that's beyond the point).

An issue could be brought up that H-beta is just a weak link, if we use Sii or Helium for example we may gain signal. This may be true for a small number of objects, but you still (almost definetly) won't be able to seperate two of the emission lines from each other as they will be in the same color channel. I would also like to point out common cases such as the rosette nebula:
[9]
Clearly the H-alpha signal is much more intense than the Sii signal. This is a vast generalization, but there are much better ways to get Sii data than one of these filters. If only someone were to provide a solution...

Solution
So what should you do? Here are a few solutions:
1. Just get a duoband filter, probably H-alpha and Oiii. If you're after that H-beta, I really think that in 99% of cases it can be artifically inserted. If you really want that H-beta, find an isolated filter and move to mono.
2. If you really want that Sii and don't want to move to mono, get two duoband filters, an H-alpha Oiii and an Sii Oiii. Or get a single bandpass Sii filter and begin your transition to mono.
3. Save the money you'd spend on a crappy filter and take a trip to dark skies. That CLS filter isn't worth it, take a weekend, go see the stars for yourself and get a good pic while you're there.
4. You want that Helium or Nii? That tri/quadband won't isolate it anyway. Pony up some $$$ to go mono and get single bandpass filters for Helium or Nii or whatever other emission line you're after.
5. Shoot longer. More data is always better, though at some point you will need to accept that the only way to get some targets is to travel to darker skies.
6. Consider purchasing software such as pixinsight, the AI RC Astro tools, etc. Though you can't sell them to recoup cost, they are worthwhile (pix especially).

[1] The spectral and spatial distribution of light pollution in the waters of the northern Gulf of Aqaba (Eilat) (Nature)
[2] NOAA Labratory Spectra (NOAA)
[3] Astronomik CLS Filter (Astronomik)
[4] Optolong CLS (City Light Supression)... (Optlong)
[5] Spectra of the Pleiades (Cloudy Nights)
[6] On the spectrum of the nebula in the Pleiades (Lowell Observatory Bulletin)
[7] Basic Atomic Spectroscopic Data (NIST)
[8] Intensity Mapping of Ha, Hb, [OII] and [OIII] Lines at Z < 5 *This paper quotes Osterbrock & Ferland 2006 for this source, which I did locate and briefly skim through, but cannot determine exactly where this number is comming from. The number is similar to the ratio thrown around often on the internet, and in my own studies so I'm willing to call it good enough for astrobin.
[9] 5 minute subs of Ha/Sii. Asi2600mm, Antlia 3nm Ha/Sii, 70mm f/4.8. 


Hope you enjoyed.

Editted to provide software solutions.
Tony Gondola avatar
Overall, I agree with you. For me, I use a simple and relatively cheap SVBony 6nm dual band (Ha-OIII) filter and it does wonders from my urban Tulsa Oklahoma backyard. I don't totally agree on the CLS type filters. I do agree that with the change to LED, these filters are a lot less effective, however. I have found that in actual imaging, if I want to capture something like the dust in M45 that the combination of a Lumicon deep sky filter and uv/ir cut works the best. It might be down to my particular combination of local lighting but the CLS type filter does have an impact. I'm not sure that a very expensive tri-band or quad-band filter would really be worth it but on the other hand, I haven't tried one.
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C.Sand avatar
Tony Gondola:
the CLS type filter does have an impact


Yes, they do have an impact. The issue is that you're cutting out signal from the target as well. This specific example of M45 is one of the best case scenarios since it is very bright in those bandpasses, but it still diminshes data. 

From Cloudbreakoptics (bandpass section): 
The Lumicon Deep Sky Filter has a wide 90-100nm bandpass for most of this range (441-535nm) to yield maximum transmission of light from stars and galaxies.

In comparison here is the LED lighting chart from above in those wavelengths. 

The average of these points works out to be 0.468..., I think it would be safe to say that this is "average" light pollution for a given set of wavelengths. As you mentioned it may be improved in your specific circumstance due to different types of lights, which if you're curious you can model with other datasets from the NOAA link. I would think this would be interesting to determine definitively if this specific filter ends up providing a net gain in signal versus light pollution.

That being said, what you're likely seeing is a boost in contrast. If you want that image, this is fine. If you want more contrast/"complete" data, this goes back to solution #5 then; shoot longer for better quality data.


Quick edit: I'd like to point out that I can't find any info on the actual bandpasses of that filter. I personally would not use the filter because of this, but if it returns results you're happy with, I encourge you to keep being happy.

Also I'm sure the tri/quad band filters do something, I just argue that there are better ways to achive that something.
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Tony Gondola avatar
I'm am going to guess that the better way would be to image in mono. If it is, I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you. In the real world there are plenty of reasons why some do and some don't.
bobtobb avatar
Interesting. Is there any way to measure the light pollution curve at any location? For example something like pointing at the moon (out of focus) and exposing every filter you have, say RGB or RGBSHO, and then comparing intensities across a known intensity curve of the out-of-focus moon?
At least here in Europe different cities have different codes around street lights etc, so I'm pretty sure the light pollution curve could vary wildly across different areas.
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C.Sand avatar
Tony Gondola:
I'm am going to guess that the better way would be to image in mono. If it is, I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you. In the real world there are plenty of reasons why some do and some don't.

Mono will return the best results, yes.
C.Sand avatar
Interesting. Is there any way to measure the light pollution curve at any location? For example something like pointing at the moon (out of focus) and exposing every filter you have, say RGB or RGBSHO, and then comparing intensities across a known intensity curve of the out-of-focus moon?
At least here in Europe different cities have different codes around street lights etc, so I'm pretty sure the light pollution curve could vary wildly across different areas.

Was told by a friend "Point a low resolution spectrograph at the sky, I use a star'ex. Small aperature fast telescopes are prefered.".
Dave Rust avatar
Of course you don’t mean to diminish the enthusiasm of those who are doing the best they can with modest gear in polluted metropolitan skies.

A reasonable use of filters can lead to pleasing results. Understanding which to use is advantageous, which is perhaps your lasting point. Filters have made possible a significant growth in the hobby by attracting many of us that lack the wealth to move or retain remote facilities.
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Alex Nicholas avatar
Mono will win, followed by OSC + Ha/OIII and SII/OIII filters.

I have basically done 'best of both worlds', by having a 4/3" OSC camera, and a 4/3" Mono camera with only L S H O filters. I shoot my L/Ha on the mono camera, and OSC data for RGB colour, blend them in PI to create L(OSC) or Ha(OSC), or just use the mono camera and create SHO/HOO or HSO narrowband images.

When I go to dark skies, I will usually only take the OSC camera to get as much clean colour data as I can, unless I have a specific target in mind where having bulk luminance data will be more advantageous… 

But for most people in bright metropolitan skies, mono cameras will produce better images.
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Dave Rust avatar
I have also returned to OSC-Plus. Mono was creating too much data, taking too much space, and extending shooting & processing time. Meanwhile, OSC continues to get more light sensitive and efficient. Enough so to attract me to the simpler procedures. I also like the realistic continuum of visible spectrum on OSC. Sometimes I’ll augment it with an overlay of specific wavelengths, thus the “Plus.”
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AstroÅmazer avatar
I have been using Askar Color Magic C2 with SVBony 7mm H-alpha. C2 has a fairly wide band around OIII and let's in H-beta, but the band around SII is narrow enough to keep H-alpha out. I usually image with C2 twice as a long or more compared to H-alpha only. If I was to use a H-alpha+OIII filter like the C1, I think by the time I accumulated enough OIII data, the H-alpha signal would have blown out parts of my image. And with how the green and blue OSC sensors/micro filters still bleed in red spectra, I think using the H-alpha signal would overwhelm OIII. Can someone who uses C1 and C2 together please comment on their experiences?
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Dave Rust avatar
I'm not familiar with the filters you describe. Hopefully others can answer your question.

But one strategy is to use a Ha+OIII filter for a series of exposures and then a SII+OIII filter for an equal number of exposures. Ha and SII get a single sequence, but OIII gets exposed during both sequences.

I also don't increase exposure time using filters when adding to a no-filter OSC image. The extra exposures themselves strengthens the lines without exaggerating the color too much.

An exception would be when using an OIII-only filter. An example would be when shooting a dim component in Bat and Squid. I'll double and triple the exposure for that one in order to get the image above camera noise. It can be processed independently of the others and added to the final image in an amount that suits.
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Jonny Bravo avatar
The following is my own rant / opinion regarding the usage of filters and OSC…

The issue with using an OSC and dual bandpass filters is that you're not getting pure signal separation. You're approximating the data. For example, if you look at the curves for any OSC, you'll see there's some leakage/bleed between the R, G and B channels. So, you can't just separate your channels and say R = Ha. It doesn't. It's Ha plus some O3. Same with the G and B channels. G contains some O3 and some Ha. B contains some O3 and some Ha.

Now, if your goal is an HOO-style image, then just take the color image you've got and edit it like you would an RGB image. There's no need to try and separate the channels. The dual bandpass filter ALREADY did that. It only collected Ha and Oiii light. So, the image you have is just Ha and Oiii data. If, on the other hand, you're trying to produce a Hubble palette image and you've got data collected from two separate dual bandpass filters (Sii / Oiii and Ha / Oiii), well, you're going to have to rely on an approximation. There is no clearcut way to truly separate out the signals.

You can certainly create nice images by using those filters, don't get me wrong, but what you have in your R channel is _NOT_ just Sii or Ha… it's a combination of Sii/Ha and Oiii. If you want pure signal such that the R channel is ONLY Sii or Ha, then you use a dedicated, single bandpass filter. Of course, that's not very efficient with OSC.

As for the so-called light pollution filters… I have long argued against them. I've used the analogy of taking a picture of a rainbow. No filter and you get the entire rainbow. Put one of those filters on and suddenly you've got a rainbow with only some deep red, some orange and a bit of green/blue. The best light pollution filter is a trip out to dark skies. Barring that, it's just a metric ton of integration time. Deal with the light pollution and gradients in image processing.

OK, rant over. Back to your regularly scheduled programming smile
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AstroÅmazer avatar
I keep exposure times and ISO/Gain etc the same. I meant twice as many sub frames with C2 as with H-alpha.

​​Maybe people using Askar Color Magic D1/D2 or the similar Antlia/Altair sets have different approaches due to the much narrowed pass bands of those filters. But those filters are 3-4 times more expensive!
Arun H avatar
Jonny Bravo:
The best light pollution filter is a trip out to dark skies. Barring that, it's just a metric ton of integration time. Deal with the light pollution and gradients in image processing.


Couldn't agree more. I have never used a light pollution filter with an OSC in Bortle 5 or better. Using it with an OSC in B6 or worse yielded less than satisfactory results, though I realize some of this may be expectations. Once you've seen what's possible from dark skies without filters, your expectations change. These days, I simply don't bother with OSC in B6. I simply do RGB mono and am starting to get good results. Restricting imaging to when the target is high in the sky and/or selecting targets away from LP domes also helps. At least each color is not contaminated with very broad light pollution as happens with OSC due to the overlapping band passes. Get a mono and be happy is my advice. Seems like you can even get good quality narrowband filters at reasonable prices these days.
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Tony Gondola avatar
I'm not sure what the original rant by C.Sand was about to be honest. There isn't anything there that the bulk of the community isn't aware of. The OSC and mono debate of course is still as heathy as ever :-) 

I know it's come up before but as someone who came up with and still shoots OSC, I still haven't seen the direct comparison test that will show me both the increase in signal and resolution that mono provides. I am not questioning that it does. What I am questioning is the degree of improvement. I know you can't get an absolutely uncontaminated narrow band signal with OSC but how much in the final product will it matter? What does it actually mean in terms of results? I do know that debayering algorithms have become extremely sophisticated because every cell phone and consumer camera depends on it.

The bottom line is, I'm not questioning that if you don't care about time or cost then mono is the best choice. If I had an unlimited budget, it's how I would go. My question is the same I would ask about getting a better mount or new OTA, is it worth it or is my hard earned cash better deployed elsewhere?. I know no one can answer that for another person but I feel that I don't have the data I can use to really say yes, that's the next upgrade I need to be looking at.
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Charles Hagen avatar
Tony Gondola:
I'm not sure what the original rant by C.Sand was about to be honest. There isn't anything there that the bulk of the community isn't aware of.

The entire premise of the post was surrounding CLS, tri/quad-band and broadband light pollution filters. Mono imaging was only mentioned in passing and is a complete tangent from the core argument of the post.
Tony Gondola:
I still haven't seen the direct comparison test that will show me both the increase in signal and resolution that mono provides.

Here's a good recent comparison. https://www.astrobin.com/forum/post/179406/ In fact you commented just 2 below it 

The math on the subject is very clear, however. Shooting a 3:1:1:1 ratio (where half of the total time is lum) means you are collecting signal significantly faster for your time, even if you dont consider the RGB at all youre getting 150% the light in the same amount of time from just the Lum. This means you get much better SNR in the same amount of time on top of the other benefits like the more distinct color channels that require less saturation (which accentuates noise) and the additional resolution that comes from not needing to interpolate most of the values in your image.
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C.Sand avatar
Tony Gondola:
I'm not sure what the original rant by C.Sand was about to be honest. There isn't anything there that the bulk of the community isn't aware of.

 
This is intended to be a warning message that I'd copy/paste to people considering buying one of these filters, but I figured I'd post it as well in case it helps anyone.


Something for me to copy and paste to (generally) new-er people to disuade against buying these filters. I posted it here for convience and in case anyone wanted to proofread/correct or whatnot.




Jonny Bravo:
The issue with using an OSC and dual bandpass filters is that you're not getting pure signal separation.


I basically completely ignored this but yes, very true and easy to see if you look at the published curves for something like the 2600mc. Thank you for the clarification.
AstroÅmazer avatar
I get all the reasons why CLS and UHC filters are not ideal. But if you live in a Bortle 5+ zone, sometimes they are the lesser of two evils. I have tried processing gradients from street lights, neighbors porch lights etc. with and without them and I find it easier to process images taken with my UHC-E filter than without. True my color balance for stars is probably off. But within my budget, I am happy with what I am getting. 

And the $185 I spent on it won't get me a trip to a dark site. Most school nights, when my telescope is in the backyard and I am putting kids to bed etc, I have no other option.

If I was sending a setup to say a remote hosting site, and could afford it, I would totally go with Askar D1/D2, or Altair/Antlia filters, with a UV-IR Cut clear glass filter for Stars if I wanted OSC or LRGBSHO if I wanted to do Mono. But again, when I just want to image from my light polluted back yard, with a camera lens or even with a small refractor, my UHC-E filter helps more than it hurts.
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Rob Lyons avatar
I prefer to look at final images rather than charts and graphs. The graphs inform, but they are only part of the story, and real-world results are all that matter. I shoot from a Bortle 9 and I can tell you unequivocally that my Antlia Triband and Quadband filters provide far superior results than shooting LRGB and using gradient reduction. Even the L-Pro makes a massive difference. They make it possible for me to image broadband targets from the city. Yes, you give up some signal from the target, but it is usually not the most important part of the signal anyway. Filters like these make imaging easier and, frankly, barely possible for many of us who can't get out of town to image.

How much imaging have you done with these filters from highly light-polluted environments? These filters are an absolute game changer, and most people with real-world experience wholeheartedly agree. 

Filters like the Antlias are worth every penny, and given their low price, probably quite a bit more. I highly recommend them to anyone who imagines extreme light pollution. Remember, you have to make sacrifices and compromises in many facets of astro imaging when imaging from an urban environment.
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C.Sand avatar
AstroÅmazer:
I get all the reasons why CLS and UHC filters are not ideal. But if you live in a Bortle 5+ zone, sometimes they are the lesser of two evils. I have tried processing gradients from street lights, neighbors porch lights etc. with and without them and I find it easier to process images taken with my UHC-E filter than without. True my color balance for stars is probably off. But within my budget, I am happy with what I am getting. 

And the $185 I spent on it won't get me a trip to a dark site. Most school nights, when my telescope is in the backyard and I am putting kids to bed etc, I have no other option.

If I was sending a setup to say a remote hosting site, and could afford it, I would totally go with Askar D1/D2, or Altair/Antlia filters, with a UV-IR Cut clear glass filter for Stars if I wanted OSC or LRGBSHO if I wanted to do Mono. But again, when I just want to image from my light polluted back yard, with a camera lens or even with a small refractor, my UHC-E filter helps more than it hurts.

I believe there are plenty of targets broadband that, if invested enough time in, you can achieve good results without the use of CLS filters. There are plenty of reasons why someone can't go to the darksite, my solutions aren't intended to be an end-all-be-all. For example I believe that 185 may be better worthwhile reserving a campsite at a national park on a special ocassion. However if you are happy with the results that these filters produce, I encourage you to continue using them.
Tony Gondola avatar
I believe there are plenty of targets broadband that, if invested enough time in, you can achieve good results without the use of CLS filters


Under what conditions and how much time? As a sanity check, I'd love to see an example that you've done.
Arun H avatar
Charles Hagen:
The math on the subject is very clear, however. Shooting a 3:1:1:1 ratio (where half of the total time is lum) means you are collecting signal significantly faster for your time, even if you dont consider the RGB at all youre getting 150% the light in the same amount of time from just the Lum. This means you get much better SNR in the same amount of time on top of the other benefits like the more distinct color channels that require less saturation (which accentuates noise) and the additional resolution that comes from not needing to interpolate most of the values in your image.

While it is  100% true that you are collecting signal much faster in LRGB versus RGB in the same time, I am not so sure that that translates directly into the same SNR improvement in the final image. LRGB combine involves redistributing the captured luminance to the RGB channels in a fairly complex way, converting the stretched RGB image into L*, a*, b* and then in some complex fashion replacing the L* with the captured luminance. The resulting image can be reconverted back to RGB space; so it is not obvious that all the extra signal fully translates to a final SNR improvement. Not to say that there isn’t an SNR improvement, just that a direct calculation may overestimate the actual improvement obtained.
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Charles Hagen avatar
Arun H:
I am not so sure that that translates directly into the same SNR improvement in the final image

Don't let the complexities of color spaces fool ya, its pretty straight forward either way you slice it. With LRGB imaging (and with OSC as well if you extract CIE L before denoising and re-apply after), you can effectively completely eliminate color noise with heavy denoising with zero noticeable loss to the final image as far as details go. If you evaluate the luminance component of an OSC image and the Lum channel of a 3:1:1:1 mono imaging run, you will always find that the Lum is significantly better. At that point, the color data is basically a wash and will be nearly identical between the two but the mono camera will have finer details and markedly less noise. I would wager that in most instances, RGB alone with half the integration would be less noisy on a mono camera as well when all said and done because of the lack of overlap between the color channels, higher contrast, higher transmission, etc.
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Arun H avatar
Charles Hagen:
I would wager that in most instances, RGB alone with half the integration would be less noisy on a mono camera as well when all said and done because of the lack of overlap between the color channels, higher contrast, higher transmission, etc.


I can certainly buy into this, plus the lack of overlap and no Bayer interpolation also makes light pollution gradients a lot easier to manage. All my color imaging in B6 is done with mono RGB. Even if I cannot prove it mathematically, the results are better and the processing is easier - the two are probably correlated.
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