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Am I doing something wrong?

Stefan Berg Nighttime Imaging 'N' Astronomy (N.I.N.A. / NINA) Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer GTi Acquisition Deep Sky Help Needed
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Johnathan Allison avatar
Johnathan Allison avatar
Hi guys..

This post is coming from frustration and confusion lol. I have been using the Seestar S50 for a few months and have been blown away with some of the results. So much so that I wanted to dive further into the astrophotography hobby. So I invested a lot of money in getting some gear to use with my DSLR. Although it is and is going to remain un-modded, I have built a rig including a GOTO mount and a decent wide FOV lens. I even invested in post processing software. I've been out with this rig  about 5 nights and other than one okay picture of M31, I havn't been successful in capturing any nebulas. I know that compared to a dedicated astro camera, DSLRs don't hold up well, but I have seen some pretty amazing pictures with unmodded DSLR's and I am getting frustrated with my poor results. 

Current gear list.
Camera: Canon Rebel SL2/200D/Kiss X8
Lens: Rokinon 135 F2 
Filter: NISI Natural Night
Mount: Skywatcher Star Adventurer GTI GOTO
Software: N.I.N.A for Imaging. Pixinsight for Post processing.

I am feeling very discouraged right now and looking for any help.

Also are there any discord servers that are recommended for some more immediate help while out in the field?

Thank you all for reading.
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Niels_L avatar
Niels_L avatar
I am no expert but I know the frustrations… This hobby surely tests our patience!

If I may ask, what is not going right? It might help if you can post an image example? Perhaps other can then help as well.
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Johnathan Allison avatar
Johnathan Allison avatar
I am no expert but I know the frustrations... This hobby surely tests our patience!

If I may ask, what is not going right? It might help if you can post an image example? Perhaps other can then help as well.

I guess what I am looking for is just generic help shooting an unmodified camera. I dont have any examples because I didn't keep any photos thus far.  I couldn't see the target.
Tony Gondola avatar
Tony Gondola avatar
I think the problem here is that you are looking for instant gratification. In that sense the Smart Telescope made it look easy when in fact, there's a lot of experience baked into what it does. Now you are getting in on the ground floor and expecting the same results right away which I think is unrealistic. Everyone is different but I can only tell my own story. I got my first telescope when I was 12, right around the time we first landed on the Moon. Visual astronomy was a basic part of my life until I got a C8 in the mid-seventies. My interest continued which lead to getting into mirror making. I dabbled in astrophotography here and there but nothing serious. I was getting a good education in optics though. Starting about 10 years ago I got serious about lunar imaging. It wasn't until about a year ago that I finally got serious about deep sky imaging. Like you, I started off with a non-modded DSLR. That was a adventure but it was also a great training ground. Believe me, I made every mistake in the book, some more than once but I was learning and starting to get some results. I'm also lucky in that I have a long background in professional photography which really helped me on the processing end of things. I can't imagine how hard it would have been if I had to learn both data acquisition and processing from the ground up! Bottom line here is enjoy the ride, keep learning and trying and learning some more. You'll get results, it's just going to take awhile.
Good luck and have fun!
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Oskari Nikkinen avatar
Oskari Nikkinen avatar
With an unmodded DSLR just dont bother with H-alpha emission nebulae (anything that you typically see as red nebulae in images). The reason being that somewhere around 75% of that light is blocked by the IR filter in unmodded Canon DSLRs, there is no way around this fact if you dont want to mod the camera - just not going to work.

But dont get discouraged, just choose a target that is not an emission nebula and you're all set. Examples of suitable targets: Any galaxy, any reflection nebula that is strong in blues such as the Pleiades, any dark nebula and so on. Basically broadband targets will be fine while Ha emission nebulae you should leave for another day and another camera.
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Tony Gondola avatar
Tony Gondola avatar
I don't often disagree with Oshari but I will here. You can shoot objects with Ha, they just have to be fairly bright. M42 season is here so you could certainly start with that. Of course you can't really effectively go after the really faint stuff but brighter objects are within reach.
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Johannes Maximilian Möslein avatar
Johannes Maximilian Möslein avatar
Hi,

don't give up, this hobby has a very steep learning curve. I know the feeling of discourage, but learning and improving is so rewarding.
Your post is a bit obscure, it's kinda hard to give specific advice. Feel free to add more details concerning your problems and everyone on AB will rush to help you.

Here is some basic advice which may be helpful when making the change from an completely autonomous system like the Seestar:
  • Preprocessing is very important. The Seestar does stack the images right away, are you doing the whole process of stacking and calibrating yourself?
  • How are your skies? Lot of light pollution?
  • Sub exposure time: Are your single images long enough to capture details?
  • Overall integration time: Nebulae need quite a bit of overall imaging time to look good, especially when using a DSLR.
  • Did you experiment with settings?
  • Processing: Often there is more visible in your data than you might think. Learning to do proper background extraction and good stretching can really make a huge difference.


As @Tony Gondola said, you now have to do every little bit the Seestar did yourself. This is objectively way more work and harder to do. But once you become good at it, your images will be so much better and you will have more fun living out this hobby.

Johannes
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Ken - Wolf Run Observatory avatar
Ken - Wolf Run Observatory avatar
When you are a child you need to learn to crawl before you can walk. Then after walking, you learn to run, etc…

This is not an easy hobby. You are trying to teach yourself how to take pictures, you are learning how to use Nina, and you are learning how to use Pixinsight. 

There are a lot of great video's on Pixinsight, I would suggest you seek them out. Visible Dark has a great series. There are quite a few on workflow, etc… 

You can also find images that others have taken and share that you can use with Pixinsight.  Many of the tutorials offer the files they are training you with.  

Learning to take pictures with Nina, Sharpcap or ASI Studio, is an art. it takes lots of practice, while you learn the effects of gain (iso in your case), exposure time, and guiding. 

Start with stars. Don't go right to galaxies and nebula's. Do something that you take and learn from.  Vega, super bright, easy to shoot and process. 

I used to get ANGRY at how hard it was. Then I changed my attitude to hey, I am not working, I am not getting bothered by anyone, it is just me a telescope and a sky. Relax, do one step at a time. Baby step!  It was over a year before I got the right combination. AND still to this day, I have images that don't workout. You are going to deal with everything from clouds, guiding issues, camera and telescope issues. And just when  you think you are going to have a great night your family needs you to do something else. 

Gratification comes in small steps.
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Johnathan Allison avatar
Johnathan Allison avatar
Johannes Maximilian Möslein:
Hi,

don't give up, this hobby has a very steep learning curve. I know the feeling of discourage, but learning and improving is so rewarding.
Your post is a bit obscure, it's kinda hard to give specific advice. Feel free to add more details concerning your problems and everyone on AB will rush to help you.

Here is some basic advice which may be helpful when making the change from an completely autonomous system like the Seestar:
  • Preprocessing is very important. The Seestar does stack the images right away, are you doing the whole process of stacking and calibrating yourself?
  • How are your skies? Lot of light pollution?
  • Sub exposure time: Are your single images long enough to capture details?
  • Overall integration time: Nebulae need quite a bit of overall imaging time to look good, especially when using a DSLR.
  • Did you experiment with settings?
  • Processing: Often there is more visible in your data than you might think. Learning to do proper background extraction and good stretching can really make a huge difference.


As @Tony Gondola said, you now have to do every little bit the Seestar did yourself. This is objectively way more work and harder to do. But once you become good at it, your images will be so much better and you will have more fun living out this hobby.

Johannes

So my recent outing was under B 4/5 sky which I understand to be not terrible. I agree with @Tony Gondola in that I may be expecting more than what I know and that I need to take a step back and appreciate that my skills will improve with more practice. As I am sure everyone on this site knows, the feeling being out for hours in the cold just to come back empty handed is super frustrating. I tried Imaging the cygnus loop last night and I just can't see anything but maybe a little blemish. I took 40 subs at 2 minuets ISO 800 (I was under the impression that is usually a good place to be). Stars where in focus if just a little elongated to do errors in tracking. I am not guiding yet. 

Thank you everyone who has responded to my venting/questioning. This has been a very humbling experience to say the least.
Johannes Maximilian Möslein avatar
Johannes Maximilian Möslein avatar
Johannes Maximilian Möslein:
Hi,

don't give up, this hobby has a very steep learning curve. I know the feeling of discourage, but learning and improving is so rewarding.
Your post is a bit obscure, it's kinda hard to give specific advice. Feel free to add more details concerning your problems and everyone on AB will rush to help you.

Here is some basic advice which may be helpful when making the change from an completely autonomous system like the Seestar:
  • Preprocessing is very important. The Seestar does stack the images right away, are you doing the whole process of stacking and calibrating yourself?
  • How are your skies? Lot of light pollution?
  • Sub exposure time: Are your single images long enough to capture details?
  • Overall integration time: Nebulae need quite a bit of overall imaging time to look good, especially when using a DSLR.
  • Did you experiment with settings?
  • Processing: Often there is more visible in your data than you might think. Learning to do proper background extraction and good stretching can really make a huge difference.


As @Tony Gondola said, you now have to do every little bit the Seestar did yourself. This is objectively way more work and harder to do. But once you become good at it, your images will be so much better and you will have more fun living out this hobby.

Johannes

So my recent outing was under B 4/5 sky which I understand to be not terrible. I agree with @Tony Gondola in that I may be expecting more than what I know and that I need to take a step back and appreciate that my skills will improve with more practice. As I am sure everyone on this site knows, the feeling being out for hours in the cold just to come back empty handed is super frustrating. I tried Imaging the cygnus loop last night and I just can't see anything but maybe a little blemish. I took 40 subs at 2 minuets ISO 800 (I was under the impression that is usually a good place to be). Stars where in focus if just a little elongated to do errors in tracking. I am not guiding yet. 

Thank you everyone who has responded to my venting/questioning. This has been a very humbling experience to say the least.

I am sure that 99% of the users here on AB share the same experience.
Starting is hard, but I would happily suffer through the many nights and days which lead nowhere just to get to where I am at now. And I still have so much to learn and experience. You never stop learning and improving in this hobby.

The Cygnus loop is probably way to dim to image as a beginner, especially with your setup and short integration time. For starters, you should image very bright objects like the Orion Nebula, Andromeda, etc.

Would you mind uploading your stacked, but unedited master files so we could take a look at it?
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Dcolam avatar
Dcolam avatar
Hi, 

I didnt read through all replies here, so it might have been already touched upon. You can definitely get some decent results with your setup, I also use it for travelling. A few pointers, you dont need a modified camera and thats probably not the reason you dont get satisfactory results (hard to judge for us as you didnt post your first light). Yes, you will get less (red) color but there are plenty of bright, broadband targets, i.e. milky way core, Rho Ophiuchi, Cepheus dark nebulae, galaxies like m31, m33, Orion and Perseus dark nebulae etc. All these targers can get you really nice images, especially with a rokinon at f2.

A main difference to the Seestar (which I see more like a toy compared to a proper tracker) is that you need to learn how to use it properly like learning to polar align well and search for targets by star hopping, it takes some practice but it gets easier and easier every time.

Secondly, go to a dark site location if possible. Broadband targets can be bright but light pollution in the city will always be brighter.

And lastly, invest time in learning on how to properly process your images. All things being equal, processing skills are probably the number 1 determining factor of how good a picture will look like. My biggest advice (and a lesson I am still trying to improve on) is to understand how much signal one can bring out before the picture starts falling apart.

My last tip is, do not fall into the trap of buying more and more gear because you think it will solve all your problems. Unfortunately, the hobby is riddled by gear acquisition syndrome, probably also promoted by all astro influencers on youtube ;) Your kit is more than capable to produce decent images, learn the basics and how to get most out of it. Than you will be more than equipped to jump to a longer focal length or a (mono) astro camera down the road and then you will be blown away by the jump because you know how to squeeze most out of it. If anything, invest in processing tools like Pixinsight and the RC tools.

Edit: I just realized that you have the Startracker GTI, so forget what I said about star hopping. That mount puts you in an even better position, as you can accurately take images of the same target across several sessions. Try to aim at the veeery least for 1 hr for bright targets, more if you are in an light polluted area. Longer is always better!
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Johnathan Allison avatar
Johnathan Allison avatar
Johannes Maximilian Möslein:
Johannes Maximilian Möslein:
Hi,

don't give up, this hobby has a very steep learning curve. I know the feeling of discourage, but learning and improving is so rewarding.
Your post is a bit obscure, it's kinda hard to give specific advice. Feel free to add more details concerning your problems and everyone on AB will rush to help you.

Here is some basic advice which may be helpful when making the change from an completely autonomous system like the Seestar:
  • Preprocessing is very important. The Seestar does stack the images right away, are you doing the whole process of stacking and calibrating yourself?
  • How are your skies? Lot of light pollution?
  • Sub exposure time: Are your single images long enough to capture details?
  • Overall integration time: Nebulae need quite a bit of overall imaging time to look good, especially when using a DSLR.
  • Did you experiment with settings?
  • Processing: Often there is more visible in your data than you might think. Learning to do proper background extraction and good stretching can really make a huge difference.


As @Tony Gondola said, you now have to do every little bit the Seestar did yourself. This is objectively way more work and harder to do. But once you become good at it, your images will be so much better and you will have more fun living out this hobby.

Johannes

So my recent outing was under B 4/5 sky which I understand to be not terrible. I agree with @Tony Gondola in that I may be expecting more than what I know and that I need to take a step back and appreciate that my skills will improve with more practice. As I am sure everyone on this site knows, the feeling being out for hours in the cold just to come back empty handed is super frustrating. I tried Imaging the cygnus loop last night and I just can't see anything but maybe a little blemish. I took 40 subs at 2 minuets ISO 800 (I was under the impression that is usually a good place to be). Stars where in focus if just a little elongated to do errors in tracking. I am not guiding yet. 

Thank you everyone who has responded to my venting/questioning. This has been a very humbling experience to say the least.

I am sure that 99% of the users here on AB share the same experience.
Starting is hard, but I would happily suffer through the many nights and days which lead nowhere just to get to where I am at now. And I still have so much to learn and experience. You never stop learning and improving in this hobby.

The Cygnus loop is probably way to dim to image as a beginner, especially with your setup and short integration time. For starters, you should image very bright objects like the Orion Nebula, Andromeda, etc.

Would you mind uploading your stacked, but unedited master files so we could take a look at it?

Unfortunately out of frustration I deleted my data because I thought I got nothing. I won't make that mistake again. lol
Johnathan Allison avatar
Johnathan Allison avatar
My last tip is, do not fall into the trap of buying more and more gear because you think it will solve all your problems. Unfortunately, the hobby is riddled by gear acquisition syndrome, probably also promoted by all astro influencers on youtube ;) Your kit is more than capable to produce decent images, learn the basics and how to get most out of it. Than you will be more than equipped to jump to a longer focal length or a (mono) astro camera down the road and then you will be blown away by the jump because you know how to squeeze most out of it. If anything, invest in processing tools like Pixinsight and the RC tools.


Brother you hit the nail on the head with this part lol. I catch myself looking at these atro camera and scopes and keep telling myself if I get these then I will get good photos. Then I see people getting the photos I want with the gear I have. So I know the problem is me and not so much my gear. As far as I have invested in PI and the RC tools. I have the holy trinity lol. Noise, Star, and BlurX. Also I need to do more reading research rather than video. I tend to tune out during long videos but not so much with reading.
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Tony Gondola avatar
Tony Gondola avatar
I forgot to add that travelling to a dark site is great but it can also be a pain. I don't know what your situation is but I do all of my work now from my bortle 8 backyard. With the right filters you can do a lot. Shooting remotely might be just an unneeded complication at this stage for you.
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Johnathan Allison avatar
Johnathan Allison avatar
Tony Gondola:
I forgot to add that travelling to a dark site is great but it can also be a pain. I don't know what your situation is but I do all of my work now from my bortle 8 backyard. With the right filters you can do a lot. Shooting remotely might be just an unneeded complication at this stage for you.

According to light pollution map, I am under a bottle 4/5 sky.
Tony Gondola avatar
Tony Gondola avatar
That's much better then a lot of people work with. I used to live under a bortle 4 sky and shooting broadband wasn't a problem.
Niels_L avatar
Niels_L avatar
I catch myself looking at these atro camera and scopes and keep telling myself if I get these then I will get good photos.

I started a year ago and exactly fell into this.  Bought so much that actually is not what I wanted.  Not due to YouTubers but mostly due to not properly researching and understanding.  The Wishlist is long now and gets refined every week, but decided to postpone all to next year so I have time to learn properly the tools I already have. 

I believe you already have PI, but that also takes a steep learning curve to get right.  I still struggle with narrowband images out of my OSC. Often I think I need a mono camera but I actually just need to spend more time in PI on trial and error. Just my computer sometimes struggles with the intensive processes, maybe I should buy a new computer?  There I go again... Hahaha

In the end it is all about the fun and it is actually fun. How crazy is it that you actually took a photo of another galaxy from your backyard!!
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David Russell avatar
David Russell avatar
Johnathan Allison:
So my recent outing was under B 4/5 sky which I understand to be not terrible.

I took 40 subs at 2 minuets



B4/B5 is not too bad by city standards but its certainly not spectacular.

I spend my first year in AP shooting with an unmodified Nikon DSLR, and I shoot from Bortle 1.

I found the magic starts to happen (with an F5.6 scope) at about 3.5 hours from Bortle 1, which is many many more hours from Bortle 4/5.

you might need 10 to 15 hours of integration, or more, depending on the Lens speed and the seeing conditions.

Good Luck.
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David Russell avatar
David Russell avatar
Just for reference here is one of my UnModified DSLR shots.

I shot this image with an 80mm Stellarvue Doublet. about 3 hours integration as I mentioned earlier.

I hope its ok to load images into threads. I might put some in my gallery sometime soon.