Which Petzval wide field refractor?

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Craig Dixon avatar
I’m thinking about replacing my 72ED refractor with something nicer so I’ve started looking at what I might like instead. I’ve decided on a petzval astrograph of some description but can’t decide what focal length to go for. My 72ED is 420mm and there are plenty of options in that area, most of which can be reduced to around 300mm. Adding a reducer does require 55mm backfocus though so you loose the advantage of the petzval design, which makes me wonder whether I should just go for something at around 300mm. I’m currently thinking of the Askar FRA300, FRA400 or 65PHQ. I’d be using a ASI183MM Pro with the scope so not such a large sensor. I’d love a 2600MM Pro to pair with it but that will have to come later if at all.

I have another setup consisting of a SkyWatcher 190MN at 1000mm with a fairly small sensor (533MC Pro) so I’d like something wide field. Anything above 400mm or so is getting too close to my 190MN setup.

Anyway, I’ve looked on Astrobin for examples of images shot at 300-400mm with the IMX183 sensor. The trouble is, a lot of targets aren’t accissible from my location and it’s hard to tell at a glance if the image has been cropped, is a mosaic, etc. The astronomy tools FOV calculator doesn’t offer much in the way of targets. My next step was to look in Stellarium but even with it showing the deep sky stuff, it’s not really representative of what’s possible. As an example, here is a screenshot from Stellarium of the Heart and Soul. It doesn’t show much of the nebulosity around but there is so much there, as can be seen here:

https://www.astrobin.com/asmc87/B/

This leaves me feeling a little stuck as to where to go from here.

I don’t want to go too short (in the region of 250-300mm) and then not be able to reach many targets but then sometimes, these shorter focal lengths reveal so much more around the main target areas. A good compromise is get a 400mm FL and then a reducer to get the best of both worlds but you do loose some sharpness with a reducer so if the goal is to go wider, it’s best to get something that’s natively wide.

As a side note, I won’t be swapping and changing between scopes. I like to get everything set up and tuned in and then leave it all built up.
YingtianZZZ avatar
fra300 or fra400 with reducer are my options. Redcats are also good but a bit pricy. 65phq is too long and slow for these wide fields. Fra300 is even sharper but 400 is a bit faster, with 2600mm there should be less difference but with 183 sensor you may find the difference, but as wide field images are usually not zoomed in for viewing details, both would work. I just recalculated the speed, fra300 looks even better as its cheaper, sharper with losing just less than 1/3 speed
andrea tasselli avatar
Use NINA to preview your combo of choice, much better and more realistic than the alternatives. As for the refractor, I wouldn't know one side from the other but my choice is and always will be for these focal lengths a photographic lens. Much much faster…
Oscar avatar
65phq is too long and slow for these wide fields.


I'm happy with mine
Dave Rust avatar
FRA500 would increase your light gathering power, making the expense more worth it. But even that is only a modest gain of perhaps 35%. With reducer, it is around 350mm…terrific for wide field.
Donna Harris avatar
I use the FRA400 and love it, and although I'm not the most experienced astrophotographer here , it was recommended by two of the most experienced imagers in my club.  I thought about the 300mm also, but the 400mm wasn't much more expensive than the 300mm - while the 500mm jumped way up in price so I just went with the best value for the FL.  I use it with and without the Askar reducer and stars are always sharp right to the corners .  That being said, I'm also using a ASI533 small square sensor camera.  I bought the Askar reducer from a club member who got a lot of star bloating/field curvature with his wider field camera so let me test it out and I was happy to have it.  If you want to go with the FRA400 or 300 and plan to upgrade to the ASI2600 (as do I!), you may want to look into a better reducer. 

As far as the FOV, you can take a look at some of my images if that helps (I have mostly N/NE access).  No mosaics and I may crop a little just to center things a bit, but you can get an idea.  I also have a Celestron 8SE 2032 fl scope, so the 400 made more sense than the 300 for me to bridge the gap.  I don't think there is a perfect size though - I often feel like my images could use a bit more space if I want to get all the gases around the nebula, but I like the 400mm for getting close to the center with the more interesting structures.  And I'd also love to get a 2600 which would give me a little more FOV.   I may get something even wider field someday, just to get those cool images of the Cygnus region as an example, but I'd probably go with something like the Askar FMA180 - I know someone that takes awesome widefield images with that.   Remember, you can always use another scope lol.
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Rick Krejci avatar
I like my Zwo FF65 with .75x reducer quite a bit.   Gives me 312mm focal length and nice flat field.   Normally do not need flats with the ASI2600MM.
Oscar avatar
Rick Krejci:
I like my Zwo FF65 with .75x reducer quite a bit.   Gives me 312mm focal length and nice flat field.   Normally do not need flats with the ASI2600MM.

I don't use reducer, but I can say, if you don't allow dust inside the system, you don't need flats

what is the main reason you got the reducer? I'm curious
Rick Krejci avatar
Oscar:
Rick Krejci:
I like my Zwo FF65 with .75x reducer quite a bit.   Gives me 312mm focal length and nice flat field.   Normally do not need flats with the ASI2600MM.

I don't use reducer, but I can say, if you don't allow dust inside the system, you don't need flats

what is the main reason you got the reducer? I'm curious

Mainly for speed and wider focal length.   I have a 250 f4 newt for more detail images.   I find the 300mm fl range fits a lot of common objects without mosaicing.
Thomas R avatar
Honestly the Apertura 75Q looks really nice. You can get the .75 reducer for 300mm or keep it at 405mm. It also uses HOYA FCD-100 glass which is a plus. I have a Redcat 71 that I got off WO website as a "like new" scope for 1200, otherwise I would have went the Apertura route.
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Dean Linic avatar
If money is not a big issue just go for new Takahashi serises Takahashi FCT-65D would be my No1 choice.
Otherwise just go for William optics, its quality is superb to all others except Takahashi.
Etienne avatar
I own two APO refractors (petzval design): the WO redcat51 (250mm) and the Askar 103apo (700mm with the 1x flattener). Both are absolutely brilliant optics, quite fast, superb assembly quality, and I have been very happy with these purchases so far.

Interestingly, Askar also offers two other reducers/flatteners for the 103apo. I did not purchase them, and I have read that they impact image quality a little bit, but they might be a good option for what your looking for. One optic, and 3 reducers options to adapt focal length according to your targets (700mm, 560mm, 420mm).
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Willem Jan Drijfhout avatar
If the goal is to get a wider field of view, I would not change the telescope, but the camera. There are very affordable IMX571-based solutions on the market. Going full-frame demands a bit more from the quality of the scope, but most decent scopes can handle APS-C format quite well. 

If the goal is a 'better' scope, it all depends on budget vs what you have now. You would probably want bigger aperture. And if budget is no issue, a Takahashi FSQ-85 or FSQ-106 would be great options. Or for example the comparable, but more affordable options from the Askar family.

Any reducer will increase pixel-scale (less detail) and decrease optical quality. For versatility reasons, there can be good reasons to buy them, but just to increase field of view, they are not the best option.
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Craig Dixon avatar
Thanks for all the responses. I'm currently using a Skywatcher 72ED, which is giving me a number of problems so that needs replacing. It's also running on a borrowed HEQ5 Pro so I'm waiting for Black Friday in the hope that ZWO will have a deal on the AM3. Replacing the camera therefore isn't an option right now as I can't afford all three. my budget for the scope is around £1000 so anything from Takahashi is really pushing it. At the moment, I'm thinking that the Askar 65PHQ with reducer will offer me the most versatility. The FRA400 is popular but a lot of people say it's not sharp, especially with the reducer. The FRA300 is apparently much better but not as optically good as the 65PHQ. Then there are the redcats.

Anyway, my issue is that it's difficult to know which FOV is going to be more useful and offer me the most versatility. If I go too short (200-300mm), will I lack enough reach for many targets? Is 300/400mm a good sweet spot?
Oscar avatar
Craig Dixon:
Thanks for all the responses. I'm currently using a Skywatcher 72ED, which is giving me a number of problems so that needs replacing. It's also running on a borrowed HEQ5 Pro so I'm waiting for Black Friday in the hope that ZWO will have a deal on the AM3. Replacing the camera therefore isn't an option right now as I can't afford all three. my budget for the scope is around £1000 so anything from Takahashi is really pushing it. At the moment, I'm thinking that the Askar 65PHQ with reducer will offer me the most versatility. The FRA400 is popular but a lot of people say it's not sharp, especially with the reducer. The FRA300 is apparently much better but not as optically good as the 65PHQ. Then there are the redcats.

Anyway, my issue is that it's difficult to know which FOV is going to be more useful and offer me the most versatility. If I go too short (200-300mm), will I lack enough reach for many targets? Is 300/400mm a good sweet spot?

yeah, 300-400mm is the sweet spot for many bigger targets, when paired with a 2600

you wont be disappointed with the 65phq
Clayton Ostler avatar
About a year ago I bought the Astro-tech AT60EDQ, its an f5, no reducer or flattener needed. I love not having to deal with backspace issues. The scope is crystal clear, no color or CA issues. It has slowly became my favorite scope. There are faster scope out there, but I never had halos, CA, or any issues.  I get the "want further reach"  but lately I have just kept using the ASI2600MC and cropped it when I want closer pics. 

To my eye, this scope is an amazing value and helped make the hobby more fun for me. The constant backspacing nonsense every time I changed filters, or cameras, and hoping it was all setup right for my reducer/flattener is not something I will ever miss.
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dkamen avatar
I have the Redcat71 with internal focuser and it's very, very good.
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Clayton Ostler avatar
I have the Redcat71 with internal focuser and it's very, very good.

I bet it is
Craig Dixon avatar
Just a quick update on this. I went for a ZWO FF65 and am expecting delivery on Monday. I was in the market for an AM3 and ZWO had a bundle deal on for the AM3, tripod, pier extension, FF65 and reducer. There was a good saving so it made sense.
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David Russell avatar
Craig Dixon:
it's difficult to know which FOV is going to be more useful and offer me the most versatility.

If I go too short (200-300mm), will I lack enough reach for many targets? Is 300/400mm a good sweet spot?


Craig. are you using Stellarium and the inbuilt tools that allow you to see visually what the FOV will be with different cameras and optics ? if not you should.  it works good.

I think 400mm is about as zoomed out as I would ever want to go. my little 80mm Stellarvue is 448mm using the reducer. I find it is ok for large targets but useless for small ones.

500mm or thereabouts is a better place to be in my opinion.
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Craig Dixon avatar
David Russell:
Craig Dixon:
it's difficult to know which FOV is going to be more useful and offer me the most versatility.

If I go too short (200-300mm), will I lack enough reach for many targets? Is 300/400mm a good sweet spot?


Craig. are you using Stellarium and the inbuilt tools that allow you to see visually what the FOV will be with different cameras and optics ? if not you should.  it works good.

I think 400mm is about as zoomed out as I would ever want to go. my little 80mm Stellarvue is 448mm using the reducer. I find it is ok for large targets but useless for small ones.

500mm or thereabouts is a better place to be in my opinion.

I am indeed. I've setup custom scopes for the FF65 with and without the reducer and then the cameras I have. Stellarium is great to get a general idea but I do find that there is so much it doesn't show you, particularly in terms on nebulosity surrounding the main targets. I'm currently looking for a better option.

I also have a SW 190MN (1000mm) with a 533MC Pro so I've been looking for a wide field refractor to compliment this.
HR_Maurer avatar
Hi,
i own a BORG 71mm fluorite refractor. I am happy with the optics itself, but not so much with everything else. I had issues with image calibration, and also had issues with camera tilt. I've been solving the first issue by wrapping dark socks around the focuser, but in the end i just dont use it very often.

The refractor has been equipped with a feathertouch focuser. This focuser doesnt have a thread to fix the camera, there is only a clamping option. And i just found, i can shine through it with the front LED on my Sony a7iv, and can view the reflection on the lens in live view. Of course this LED is only shining during a timer countdown, but this shows how large the problem is. No idea where the feathertouches got their reputation from.
So i have to adapt some different focuser (most probably a BORG helical), which is a pain because in the BORG universe there are only exotic threads involved. That means i have either to buy expensive adapters, or to get custom made ones. So, if you think about buying a BORG, you should consider this.
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Dean Ostergaard avatar
I am very happy with my Founder Optics Draco 62 Quintuplet. 300mm native focal length at f/4.8 or 249mm at f/3.9 with the included 0.83x reducer. The system is unique in that adding the reducer does not add any length since it is installed inside the focuser and adapter ring.

You won't see a lot of photos taken with this scope but I think that's because it is a relatively new model from a lesser known brand. That said, I have been impressed with the quality and workmanship. To my beginner eyes and given that my largest sensor is my Player One Artemis-M Pro I see pinpoint round stars out to all four corners.
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Clayton Ostler avatar
Dean Ostergaard:
I am very happy with my Founder Optics Draco 62 Quintuplet. 300mm native focal length at f/4.8 or 249mm at f/3.9 with the included 0.83x reducer. The system is unique in that adding the reducer does not add any length since it is installed inside the focuser and adapter ring.

You won't see a lot of photos taken with this scope but I think that's because it is a relatively new model from a lesser known brand. That said, I have been impressed with the quality and workmanship. To my beginner eyes and given that my largest sensor is my Player One Artemis-M Pro I see pinpoint round stars out to all four corners.

I would love to see some of your photos from that scope. I remember when it first came out I was so excited and then there were some really bad reviews. Interested to know how well it works for you, and what size sensor you're using it seems like the reviews I read suggested that even an APS-C sensor had issues on the edges with vignetting. 
I hope the scope is working out awesome for you because it does have really good specs, I was right on the edge about getting one.
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