supper3982 avatar
Hello, soon I will be 18 and and I would like to get better in practical astronomy (looking at the sky). I'm already great in theoretical astronomy, 5 years ago I was the best in my country for my age, but I know only for Andromeda and Orion nebula where they are in the night sky.


I would ask you for your recommemdations. Here is what I'm looking for:


1. Camera: I already have ASI224MC that I used it for allsky camera project and I would like to get some photos with it. It has only 1/3" sensor size, is that a problem? Should I buy a better one?

2. Mount: I'm for sure buying star tracker, something that follows the sky, supports max 5 kg and DOESN'T have goto functionality. I want to learn where the objects are. I also want to use it for allsky camera for betrer photos.

3. Size/Weight: I want something small and lightweight, so I can put everthing in a big backpack together with sleeping bag and stuff like that, star stracker should support max 5kg.

4. Telescope: Refractor! I want to use it for manual observing AND astrophotography. Objects of interest are mostly messier objects.

5. Budget (evrything, not just telescope): Its not a gift (maybe just partially) from others but from me for me. I was hoping for like 800€ but after looking at all options it will be twice as much. I'm 18 once in a whole life, this year should be special. If I will be good at this years competition I will round it to 2000€.

Best european site that has the most choice that I found is astroshop.eu. Here are telescopes that may be what Im looking for:
- AC 102 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/skywatcher-telescope-ac-102-500-startravel-ota/p,21953
- AP 60/360 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/ts-optics-apochromatic-refractor-ap-60-360-ed-tsmpt60-ota/p,79714
- AP 70/420 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/tecnosky-apochromatic-refractor-ap-70-420-ed-v2-ota/p,57326
- AP 72/420 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/skywatcher-apochromatic-refractor-ap-72-420-evostar-72-ed-ds-pro-ota/p,56994
​- AP 80/600 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/skywatcher-apochromatic-refractor-ap-80-600-evostar-ed-ota/p,15056


And questions other questions:
- What focus lenght do I need?
- Should I get 2 telescopes, 1 small (AP) for astrophotography and 1 larger (AC) for onserving?
- What filters do I need?
- Can I use startracker in the same way as a normal EQ mount?


Thank you for all answers! The first telescope is the most important one?
Eddie Bagwell avatar
A 70-80mm refractor would be a great place to start and learn this hobby. Easy to guide and will bring in many great targets such as nebulas and star clusters. The color camera will also make processing easier to start.

Best, Eddie
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andrea tasselli avatar
If you want to learn your way around the sky you need two things:

1. Dark skies

2. Decent aperture

The second one rules out a small refractor, the first one rules out a mid-sized dobsonian if you need to travel and you don't have your own means of transportation. A star tracker won't do for visual observing. 

So the answer to your queries is get the largest APO refractor you can afford which basically is going to be a 80mm aperture telescope and do AP or EEA only. And get a larger camera or a DSLR. And means to power it that you are confortable toting around as well the necessary computer hardware (if using an astro-camera, you can dispense with it using a DLSR).
David Foust avatar
If you ever want to do any imaging, you will need a decent tracking mount. Plus it could make visual observing or electronically assisted astronomy more enjoyable since you can track the target. You can manually slew to targets if you wish (since you wanted to learn more of the sky), and then the mount can lock on it for you when you've found what you're looking for.

I'd recommend getting a decent mount. The mount will last you as long as you want to use it (if you get a good one with a decent payload capacity.) Alternatively, if portability is most important, you'll want a mount that's capable, somewhat rigid, yet still relatively lightweight. I think the Skywatcher EQM-35 would suit you nicely here. Enough payload capacity for smaller refractors to give you good guiding. https://www.teleskop-express.de/en/mounts-tripods-rings-rails-power-supply-14/mounts-equatorial-with-goto-20/skywatcher-eqm-35-pro-synscan-goto-mount-with-aluminium-travel-tripod-11170

As for the scope, like others suggested, a small refector is your best bet for a lighter, grab and go setup. If you ever want to dabble in astrophotography or electronically-assisted astronomy, a 4+ element petzvel flat-field design should suit you nicely. Something like this seems to be a good balance of aperture and focal ratio: https://www.teleskop-express.de/en/ts-teleskope-143/all-apos-and-eds-from-all-manufacturers-large-overview-223/offer-ts-optics-70-mm-f-6-78-quadruplet-4-element-apo-flatfield-refractor-telescope-16104

Those two fit nicely in your budget. There are some other accessories you may want to consider as well. For visual, you may want a set of eye pieces and a diagonal to hold your eyepieces in a comfortable position. Additionally, that scope seems to need a T2 adaptor for directly attaching a camera, though could could probably find a way to utilize your current camera as an "electronic eyepiece" for EAA with a diagonal)
​​​​https://www.teleskop-express.de/en/adaptors-10/adapter-t2-m42x0-75-122/ts-optics-focal-adapter-from-2-to-t2-thread-40-mm-optical-length-593

Finally, if you do want to try photography with your asi camera, a ASIAIR Mini would be a nice way to round out this set up. It's an effective tool for imaging in the field (or even on cold nights) and you can control your setup wirelessly from a phone, tablet, or PC. ​​​You can also accomplish this by connecting your mount and camera to a laptop and running software like NINA if you'd like to try that first.

Good luck with your choice. Clear skies!

​​​​​​
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Jan Ossowski avatar
Hi!
I find it a bit unclear from your post if your main goal is visual observations or astrophotography. 
Sadly, these have very different requirements, and if you try to go for a compromise you are likely to end up with equipment that does't do either of these things too well. 

Let me briefly elaborate on what I mean. I'm assuming deep space photography here, solar system imaging is yet another thing.
In astrophotography the most important things are stable tracking and well corrected optics. (in this order). 
You can get excellent results with a very small, but high quality telescope. It is actually often preferable over larger scopes because it's easier on the mount. 

In visual observations however, size matters. And actually size matters basically over everything else. You will see so much more with the simplest 8" Newton on dobsonian mount than the highest possible quality space-engineered apo refractor which is the size of your forearm. 

So this basically consitutes the answer to one of your last questions
- Should I get 2 telescopes, 1 small (AP) for astrophotography and 1 larger (AC) for onserving?
If you want to do both - yes. However you can simply focus on one thing for now and just accept that the astrophotography set you get won't let you do any observing (or the other way around). 

It also kinda answers your other question:
- What focus lenght do I need?
This is up to you, but keep in mind the golden rule. The most important thing in deep space photography is precise tracking. And "precise" is a relative term. The easiest way to understand it is that the precision of tracking should correspond to your scale. If a single pixel covers 6.74x6.74 arcsec of the sky  (that's the value for canon 6D dslr and 200mm focal length), then 3 arcsec tracking precision is absolutely good enough. 
If you go for a focal length of 800 mm and pair it with a small pixel camera like asi2600 you end up with 0.97"x0.97 scale and the 3 arcsec tracking precision doesn't sound too good any more. (this is just an example, not considering the budget here). 

- Can I use startracker in the same way as a normal EQ mount?
A startracker is literally a normal EQ mount. Means the same thing, the term is just usually used to describe the small eq mounts ;) 


Before I make a concrete recommendation let me just say one more thing. 
You're saying you don't want a goto mount. I appreciate your motivations, but let me tell you: you do want a goto mount if you seriously want to pursue astrophotography, you just don't know it yet. Nothing stops you from not using the goto functionality, but having it is an absolute game changer for many reasons.
1. finding stuff in space is damn hard. And while it's really fun to play around to find bright stars or objects such as M31 or M42, try doing that with a dark nebula which you won't even see after you've found it, because you need a multi minute exposure to confirm. Trust me, it's frustrating as hell in the long run even if it does seem fun initially. 
2. repetitive framing. If you end up actually doing astrophotography, you'll find sooner or later that sometimes a single night session is just not enough. Now imagine that you spend an hour looking for the object, and the next day you need to spend 2 hours for the same thing, because not only do you need to find it again, you need to find it with precision of a few pixels to have the same framing!
3. time. This relates to the stuff already mentioned. If you have an object visible you want to photograph and it will be visible for another 5 hours (2 of which very low over the horizon), you want to take 3 hours of exposure!

If you want to practice finding stuff, the forementioned newtonian telescope on a dobsonian mount is a great way to do it. Getting a non-goto mount for astrophotography is just not. 

Now with all that said, here is my recommendation for what to buy for the budget you have with brief explanations of the choices. Keep in mind this is just an example, there is no one right answer. 
1. Sky-Watcher EQM35 PRO for 809 euros. Did I just ignore your non-goto requirement and recommended a mount with double the lifting capacity you mentioned? yes. And I think I already explained myself above well enough. On top of that, it has an awesome feature that I don't think any other mount has. You can partially disaseemble it to convert it to a light weight sky tracker able to support a DSLR camera with a lens which answers your backpacking needs (which I think are utopian but that's off topic and I'm happy to discuss it later).
2. TS-Optics PhotoLine 60 mm + TsRed08-60 reducer-corrector for 680 euros. (f=288mm) This is just a doublet, but it's surprisingly potent and with the reducer it becomes pretty fast (f/4.8). It will also work reasonably well even with full frame sensor which brings me to:
3. Canon 6d mk1 astromod (used) for 340 euros. It is an extremely potent camera for the price. It has a reasonably big pixel (I already explained the benefits) and low noise sensor. I am currently selling one for that much, so I used that as the price. They usually go for a bit more, but you can also get one a bit cheaper if you're patient and observe the marketplace ;) 

we arrived at 1829 euros. I used currently available prices as estimates. The mount is from polish shop teleskopy.pl (which i highly recommend, their website is aweful but they are a good store with mostly unbeatable prices and they ship eu wide for fixed price). The scope is currently on sale in teleskop-express.de 
Let me keep going, stay with me

4. Asi 120 mm mini (used) for 120 euros. They usually go for a bit more, but again, I recently sold one for this exact price so I use that as an estimate
5. cheapest guiding scope you can find used (literally any will do) for 50 euros
6. asiair mini for 150 euros (currently available on astrobin marketplace for that much). 

This adds another 320 euros with a grand total of 2149 euros plus shipping costs, let's say 2200. Notice how I totally ignored the fact that you already own the ASI224MC camera? That's where you get the extra 200 euros (well, that's a bit optimistic, but you should get at least 150). 
While this is by no means a bad camera, it's not suitable for deep space photography whatsoever. It's a typical planetary camera. 
Alternatively, you can skip the asi120mm in the above set and use your ASI224MC for guiding. 


Let me just quickly summarize all this 8 hour post smile 
What I'm proposing is totally not what you asked for. But this is what I would get if I were you having the experience I have. It's a full and very potent astrophotography set. Additionaly, whenyou feel like investing more money (notice how I used "when" and not "if"?) you can easily exchange it piece by piece already owning a mount which will take much more. 
Just as an example: want a bigger telescope? No problem, sell this one, but a 80mm apo and everything will work. Want a quality of life improvement? Just add an autofocuser. Wanna do some visual observations? Take your mount and put a 150/750 newtonian on it, it will take it just fine! 


- What filters do I need?
initialy none. Leave that for the future ;) 



PS: whoa that was long and I feel like I have so much more to say xd
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Cosmetatos avatar
I agree with Jan above. Some modifications to consider:
- a C6 is a great entry level telescope. It is also more able for observing than any small apo. Astrophotography is slightly more challenging due to higher focal length, but can be done and it is very rewarding) check astrobin photos). If you find one used for really good price you will save enough so you may be able to also get a cheap =>>
- a used 533c or 183c or 294c zwo dedicated astro camera instead of the canon. While the mod canon is great for astrophotography, in my experience it kind of fails with live stacking which is a great alternative to visual.
shenmesaodongxia avatar
Hello, soon I will be 18 and and I would like to get better in practical astronomy (looking at the sky). I'm already great in theoretical astronomy, 5 years ago I was the best in my country for my age, but I know only for Andromeda and Orion nebula where they are in the night sky.


I would ask you for your recommemdations. Here is what I'm looking for:


1. Camera: I already have ASI224MC that I used it for allsky camera project and I would like to get some photos with it. It has only 1/3" sensor size, is that a problem? Should I buy a better one?

2. Mount: I'm for sure buying star tracker, something that follows the sky, supports max 5 kg and DOESN'T have goto functionality. I want to learn where the objects are. I also want to use it for allsky camera for betrer photos.

3. Size/Weight: I want something small and lightweight, so I can put everthing in a big backpack together with sleeping bag and stuff like that, star stracker should support max 5kg.

4. Telescope: Refractor! I want to use it for manual observing AND astrophotography. Objects of interest are mostly messier objects.

5. Budget (evrything, not just telescope): Its not a gift (maybe just partially) from others but from me for me. I was hoping for like 800€ but after looking at all options it will be twice as much. I'm 18 once in a whole life, this year should be special. If I will be good at this years competition I will round it to 2000€.

Best european site that has the most choice that I found is astroshop.eu. Here are telescopes that may be what Im looking for:
- AC 102 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/skywatcher-telescope-ac-102-500-startravel-ota/p,21953
- AP 60/360 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/ts-optics-apochromatic-refractor-ap-60-360-ed-tsmpt60-ota/p,79714
- AP 70/420 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/tecnosky-apochromatic-refractor-ap-70-420-ed-v2-ota/p,57326
- AP 72/420 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/skywatcher-apochromatic-refractor-ap-72-420-evostar-72-ed-ds-pro-ota/p,56994
​- AP 80/600 https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/skywatcher-apochromatic-refractor-ap-80-600-evostar-ed-ota/p,15056


And questions other questions:
- What focus lenght do I need?
- Should I get 2 telescopes, 1 small (AP) for astrophotography and 1 larger (AC) for onserving?
- What filters do I need?
- Can I use startracker in the same way as a normal EQ mount?


Buy a samyang 135 f2, since your main camera frame is so small.
supper3982 avatar
Thanks to all of you for taking time to write usefull recommendations! 🙂

Here is what I'll probably buy now:

Telescope: Skywatcher Evostar ED80 - because it's ok for visual use and good for astrophotpgraphy and it comes with a lot of accessories for visual use - I don't have to think even more what to buy. Worst case scenario I will use it for one thing - good enough.

Mount: Skywatcher Star Adventurer GTi - because it can have batteries and thats why not bigger EQ3.

Accessories:
- 10 mm SWA eyepiece
- Adaptor 2" to 1.25"
- Adaptor 2" to T2
- Light pollution filter - I'm close to city

And about ASIAIR Mini… I've heard only good things about it BUT I'm computer geek and I know how to code. I'm making my own program for taking exposures with asi cameras, currently I use it for allsky, but there is no reason I can't use it for my telescope. I have a lot of Raspberry Pis (same minicomputer as asiair mini) at home and I will use one for that. Its also great process to know how every part of astrophotpgraphy works.

I'm lazy as hell and I know if I get big, heavy, and clumsy Newtonian I won't use it, I have some experience with it…

And WHEN I will have more money to spent first thing I'll buy is:
- ASI585mc Pro
- 0.85x focal reducer/corrector

​​​​​​Thanks again to everyone and please don't feel offended if I ignored some of your recommendations. And feel free to tell me if I forgot something.

May the clear skies be with you.
Jan Ossowski avatar
You're landing in the exact pitfall I warned you about in the first few sentences of my answer. 
Ed80 is too small for visual observations. Yes, you will see SOMETHING but really not much. 
It's also waaay too big for the mount you chose, especially for astrophotography. Notice it's focal length as well. There is absolutely no way youll get stable tracking. 
I would even argue it's too big for the eqm35, but you may get away with this using a big pixel camera. But the gti is simply not going to do
Jan Ossowski avatar
An eq6-r just appeared on the marketplace in Sweden for a sweet price. This is the direction you should go in, not the other way around smile
David Russell avatar
Here is what I'll probably buy now:

Telescope: Skywatcher Evostar ED80 -
Mount: Skywatcher Star Adventurer GTi - because it can have batteries and thats why not bigger EQ3.

OK. you need to slow down and not buy anything yet.

the Star adventurer is not big enough to swing an 80mm refractor with any level of success for AP.

star adventures are designed to carry DSLR and DSLR Lenses or very small telescopes.

many people shoot with DSLR lenses when they start out, myself included. I had a lot of fun with a DSLR way back when...

some of the iOptron mounts are very light and portable if moving around is your thing, and DSLRs are lightweight and portable too.
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supper3982 avatar
Thanks for all help!
I bought ED80 with 0.85x reducer, Skywatcher AL55i Pro mount and Asi585mc pro. I went a little over budget... I've heard that's normal. Thanks again for recommendations, especially about the mount.
Clear skies!
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