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Tilt frustrations and need some advice

Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer GTi Equipment Help Needed Tilt
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Léo Duchêne avatar
Léo Duchêne avatar
Hi all, 

First post for me on this forum as I feel in need for some advice.

I started astrophotography a few years ago and quickly became addicted. First started with a lens and camera (Fuji X-T20 and Samyang 135mm) and got some nice results, good enough to make me want to invest more.

I now have the following setup:
  • Star Adventurer GTI
  • Samyang 135mm lens for deep sky and an SW Evostar 72ED which I used for some lunar and solar imaging + EAF
  • Player-One Uranus-C (uncooled, nights are cold enough here) as main camera with UV-IR and/or L-extreme filters
  • Uniguide 32mm and Player-One Ceres-M camera for guiding
  • I control everything with Stellarmate on a RPi4
  • All running on a small battery (important for me, I need things to remain portable)


Last year was the first year with that setup and I got some nice results, especially on the Rosette nebula. But also a lot of frustrating sessions partly due to Stellarmate which took me some time to handle, as well as my optical system. In short I quite often get significant tilt in my images with the Samyang lens even with the small IMX585 sensor. I suppose it is because I had to 3D print a custom adapter for it since it is the Fuji version.

I live in Sweden which means two things. Rare clear nights which are mostly very cold, so good imaging session are precious and a commitment. I live in a sub-urban area (bortle 6-7) and do not own a car so even if much darker skies are available I don't go there often. 

Now I feel I do not want to waste more time trying to solve tilt issues (it also seems inconsistent from night to night?). So I have a few options and would like to hear about your opinion:
  1. Make the most of what I already own and use the Evostar 72ED telescope instead. I checked and I see no significant tilt, but this is a significantly slower scope (F/5.8 instead of F/2.8) + some CA and bloating. Also with my camera I get a pixel scale of 1.42 pixel/arcsec which I guess is a challenge with the Star Adenturer GTI.
  2. I should insist in trying to solve the issues with tilt on my Samyang lens. It is a great lens indeed
  3. Get a RedCat 51 as a compromise (much better optics and faster than the 72ED). I have seen nice prices on refurbished models + I already own some of the accesories for the EAF (they are also compatible with the Samyang 135mm)
  4. (Bonus) Get Pixinsight and BlurX anyways to help with star shapes (I think I know the answer to this one)


Sorry for the long post but I hope this can trigger some interesting discussions. 

Léo
Continuum - Laurent Lucas avatar
Continuum - Laurent Lucas avatar
Tilt tuning is gonna be demanding at f2. In my opinion at these focal ratios, nothing short of a Photon Cage or Octopi is gonna cut it. Also, it's somewhat wasteful to not use these kind of lenses with larger sensors. That's expensive. Also, there needs to be a mechanically sound and reliable way to pair the lens with the camera. Focus is gonna be demanding too with a typical EAF and belt drive. In sum and paradoxically, these "small" camera lens setups need quite a lot of thought, fuss, and cost, to be operated at their full potential.

On the other hand your refractor, although not great, will be able to deliver better image scale with what you already own, at the cost of fairly longer integration times. You can guide your mount to reasonable RMS with some care to balance and guider settings. With shorter exposures and the help of the aforementioned IA tool, you could hide most of the tracking and optical blur, and end up with quite satisfying images, at virtually 0 additional cost, and surely a lot less headaches, if that's what you're after.


Laurent
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andrea tasselli avatar
andrea tasselli avatar
Didn't know that the Samyang also came as a Fuji variant. Guess every day is school day. The main issue here is the adapter for the Uranus-C and simply said plastic is no go here. Given the limited backfocus you would need to hack it to replace the flange with a M48 adapter and also remove the hard stop for the focus ring which would allow pushing further out the focus. Check the internet as they sell ready made kits for this specific issue. Also there are few YT videos describing how to hack the Samyang. Shimming will do the rest.
Helpful
Léo Duchêne avatar
Léo Duchêne avatar
andrea tasselli:
Didn't know that the Samyang also came as a Fuji variant. Guess every day is school day. The main issue here is the adapter for the Uranus-C and simply said plastic is no go here. Given the limited backfocus you would need to hack it to replace the flange with a M48 adapter and also remove the hard stop for the focus ring which would allow pushing further out the focus. Check the internet as they sell ready made kits for this specific issue. Also there are few YT videos describing how to hack the Samyang. Shimming will do the rest.

Yes I did find a design for an adapter that connects below where the flange would normally be. Printed it in carbon fiber reinforced PETG but I guess it doesn't beat metal. The Fuji version of the lens is actually very similar to Canon (flange aside) but not quite similar enough to get the nice metal adapters that already exist for those.

I think both answers here are along the lines of making the most of what I have already and it's probably good advice  

The Samyang lens is always great to have for travelling with my Fuji camera which I still have so nothing is wasted here !
Jerry Yesavage avatar
Jerry Yesavage avatar
Léo Duchêne:
Hi all, 

First post for me on this forum as I feel in need for some advice.

I started astrophotography a few years ago and quickly became addicted. First started with a lens and camera (Fuji X-T20 and Samyang 135mm) and got some nice results, good enough to make me want to invest more.

I now have the following setup:
  • Star Adventurer GTI
  • Samyang 135mm lens for deep sky and an SW Evostar 72ED which I used for some lunar and solar imaging + EAF
  • Player-One Uranus-C (uncooled, nights are cold enough here) as main camera with UV-IR and/or L-extreme filters
  • Uniguide 32mm and Player-One Ceres-M camera for guiding
  • I control everything with Stellarmate on a RPi4
  • All running on a small battery (important for me, I need things to remain portable)


Last year was the first year with that setup and I got some nice results, especially on the Rosette nebula. But also a lot of frustrating sessions partly due to Stellarmate which took me some time to handle, as well as my optical system. In short I quite often get significant tilt in my images with the Samyang lens even with the small IMX585 sensor. I suppose it is because I had to 3D print a custom adapter for it since it is the Fuji version.

I live in Sweden which means two things. Rare clear nights which are mostly very cold, so good imaging session are precious and a commitment. I live in a sub-urban area (bortle 6-7) and do not own a car so even if much darker skies are available I don't go there often. 

Now I feel I do not want to waste more time trying to solve tilt issues (it also seems inconsistent from night to night?). So I have a few options and would like to hear about your opinion:
  1. Make the most of what I already own and use the Evostar 72ED telescope instead. I checked and I see no significant tilt, but this is a significantly slower scope (F/5.8 instead of F/2.8) + some CA and bloating. Also with my camera I get a pixel scale of 1.42 pixel/arcsec which I guess is a challenge with the Star Adenturer GTI.
  2. I should insist in trying to solve the issues with tilt on my Samyang lens. It is a great lens indeed
  3. Get a RedCat 51 as a compromise (much better optics and faster than the 72ED). I have seen nice prices on refurbished models + I already own some of the accesories for the EAF (they are also compatible with the Samyang 135mm)
  4. (Bonus) Get Pixinsight and BlurX anyways to help with star shapes (I think I know the answer to this one)


Sorry for the long post but I hope this can trigger some interesting discussions. 

Léo

Tilt can be tough. Can be anywhere in the image train. NINA has a plugin called Hocus Focus that allows you to put numbers on the problem. Adjust. Recheck numbers. All free. Can take problems to their Discord forum.
TiffsAndAstro avatar
TiffsAndAstro avatar
Léo Duchêne:
Hi all, 

First post for me on this forum as I feel in need for some advice.

I started astrophotography a few years ago and quickly became addicted. First started with a lens and camera (Fuji X-T20 and Samyang 135mm) and got some nice results, good enough to make me want to invest more.

I now have the following setup:
  • Star Adventurer GTI
  • Samyang 135mm lens for deep sky and an SW Evostar 72ED which I used for some lunar and solar imaging + EAF
  • Player-One Uranus-C (uncooled, nights are cold enough here) as main camera with UV-IR and/or L-extreme filters
  • Uniguide 32mm and Player-One Ceres-M camera for guiding
  • I control everything with Stellarmate on a RPi4
  • All running on a small battery (important for me, I need things to remain portable)


Last year was the first year with that setup and I got some nice results, especially on the Rosette nebula. But also a lot of frustrating sessions partly due to Stellarmate which took me some time to handle, as well as my optical system. In short I quite often get significant tilt in my images with the Samyang lens even with the small IMX585 sensor. I suppose it is because I had to 3D print a custom adapter for it since it is the Fuji version.

I live in Sweden which means two things. Rare clear nights which are mostly very cold, so good imaging session are precious and a commitment. I live in a sub-urban area (bortle 6-7) and do not own a car so even if much darker skies are available I don't go there often. 

Now I feel I do not want to waste more time trying to solve tilt issues (it also seems inconsistent from night to night?). So I have a few options and would like to hear about your opinion:
  1. Make the most of what I already own and use the Evostar 72ED telescope instead. I checked and I see no significant tilt, but this is a significantly slower scope (F/5.8 instead of F/2.8) + some CA and bloating. Also with my camera I get a pixel scale of 1.42 pixel/arcsec which I guess is a challenge with the Star Adenturer GTI.
  2. I should insist in trying to solve the issues with tilt on my Samyang lens. It is a great lens indeed
  3. Get a RedCat 51 as a compromise (much better optics and faster than the 72ED). I have seen nice prices on refurbished models + I already own some of the accesories for the EAF (they are also compatible with the Samyang 135mm)
  4. (Bonus) Get Pixinsight and BlurX anyways to help with star shapes (I think I know the answer to this one)


Sorry for the long post but I hope this can trigger some interesting discussions. 

Léo


I have very similar gear and only been astroing since Jan.
My advice would be to try and master your current gear and resist trying to cure your problems by spending money.
At least for the time being
Jerry Yesavage avatar
Jerry Yesavage avatar
TiffsAndAstro:
Léo Duchêne:
Hi all, 

First post for me on this forum as I feel in need for some advice.

I started astrophotography a few years ago and quickly became addicted. First started with a lens and camera (Fuji X-T20 and Samyang 135mm) and got some nice results, good enough to make me want to invest more.

I now have the following setup:
  • Star Adventurer GTI
  • Samyang 135mm lens for deep sky and an SW Evostar 72ED which I used for some lunar and solar imaging + EAF
  • Player-One Uranus-C (uncooled, nights are cold enough here) as main camera with UV-IR and/or L-extreme filters
  • Uniguide 32mm and Player-One Ceres-M camera for guiding
  • I control everything with Stellarmate on a RPi4
  • All running on a small battery (important for me, I need things to remain portable)


Last year was the first year with that setup and I got some nice results, especially on the Rosette nebula. But also a lot of frustrating sessions partly due to Stellarmate which took me some time to handle, as well as my optical system. In short I quite often get significant tilt in my images with the Samyang lens even with the small IMX585 sensor. I suppose it is because I had to 3D print a custom adapter for it since it is the Fuji version.

I live in Sweden which means two things. Rare clear nights which are mostly very cold, so good imaging session are precious and a commitment. I live in a sub-urban area (bortle 6-7) and do not own a car so even if much darker skies are available I don't go there often. 

Now I feel I do not want to waste more time trying to solve tilt issues (it also seems inconsistent from night to night?). So I have a few options and would like to hear about your opinion:
  1. Make the most of what I already own and use the Evostar 72ED telescope instead. I checked and I see no significant tilt, but this is a significantly slower scope (F/5.8 instead of F/2.8) + some CA and bloating. Also with my camera I get a pixel scale of 1.42 pixel/arcsec which I guess is a challenge with the Star Adenturer GTI.
  2. I should insist in trying to solve the issues with tilt on my Samyang lens. It is a great lens indeed
  3. Get a RedCat 51 as a compromise (much better optics and faster than the 72ED). I have seen nice prices on refurbished models + I already own some of the accesories for the EAF (they are also compatible with the Samyang 135mm)
  4. (Bonus) Get Pixinsight and BlurX anyways to help with star shapes (I think I know the answer to this one)


Sorry for the long post but I hope this can trigger some interesting discussions. 

Léo


I have very similar gear and only been astroing since Jan.
My advice would be to try and master your current gear and resist trying to cure your problems by spending money.
At least for the time being

Agree, check out Hocus Focus to get a handle on the tilt.  That is Open Source.  (Free)
Léo Duchêne avatar
Léo Duchêne avatar
I have not tried this plugin yet, partly because I usually do not take my laptop out (using a raspberry pi and stellarmate, not nina) and also because I do feel like the tilt direction is not constant? With a plastic adaptor it could be that it changes when I transport the lens which I do for every session. So my thought was that it was not worth the effort to play with the tilt plate if ​​I have to do it again at the next session but perhaps it is easier than I think? How long would you say it takes to do tilt adjustment with this plugin? 

In the meantime I have switched to the evostar 72ED. I do like the field of view it gives me even if it is a huge sacrifice in terms of focal ratio
Engaging
Jerry Yesavage avatar
Jerry Yesavage avatar
You can mess with the tilt stuff at home before and after a trip and see if it changes… you do need to look at stars.  I am sure there must be YouTube videos on this.
TiffsAndAstro avatar
TiffsAndAstro avatar
Léo Duchêne:
I have not tried this plugin yet, partly because I usually do not take my laptop out (using a raspberry pi and stellarmate, not nina) and also because I do feel like the tilt direction is not constant? With a plastic adaptor it could be that it changes when I transport the lens which I do for every session. So my thought was that it was not worth the effort to play with the tilt plate if ​​I have to do it again at the next session but perhaps it is easier than I think? How long would you say it takes to do tilt adjustment with this plugin? 

In the meantime I have switched to the evostar 72ED. I do like the field of view it gives me even if it is a huge sacrifice in terms of focal ratio


TAke care with 72ed focus lock screw thing. I find if it is anything not quite loose, it cause focal slop that could be misconstrued as tilt. 
Might just be my example that does it.

*** apologies, my phrasing is awful. basically if i tighten this screw more than the minimum to stop it rattling loosely, i seem to get some tilt/slop.
Léo Duchêne avatar
Léo Duchêne avatar
Thanks, I did notice the focus lock screw is quite sensitive when installing the EAF on the scope. I think I have it set well now but we definitely check it if I encounter tilt in that setup smile