Newbie Equipment choice - Star Tracker vs Mount - Forums

Topic starter

Jul 28, 2021

Hey guys,

I have been looking at images on AstroBin and watching videos about astrophotography, equipment, image processing and at merchant websites for a few years now, but got really serious about purchasing my first ever astrophotography gear in the last 6 months or so. I finished my degree a couple of years ago and have a steady job since, which provides me with a certain budget I did not have when I first got interested on the subject.

I am from a country without much access to most of the equipment out there since we have language restrictions on packaging, therefore I am limited in the equipment I can purchase to start my journey, and everything seems to be priced higher than anywhere else people purchase this kind of equipment as I could see on the forums and videos.

I am interested in deep sky photography (nebulas, clusters, etc) rather than very wide field photography (milky way and such), and live in a pretty flat part of this earth, therefore hiking/portability is not really my priority. However, since this will be my first ever purchase of astrophotography gear, I am still torn between spending less for a star tracker (DSLR mount), or spend more on an actual mount and telescope. I would still use my DSLR to start either way, but plan on getting a dedicated camera if I get more serious with this hobby.

My max budget would be around 4k, which can buy me very nice starting setup. Would you guys recommend spending half of that on a star tracker (like iOptron Sky Guider or SkyWatcher SA) and telephoto lense or small refractor like WO RedCat 51, or spend as much as my budget allows for a nice mount and scope (something like an EQ6 and a tripet APO 80-100mm)? Heck, are you even suggesting I spend my half budget on a lower tier mount and scope?

Even though the learning curve will be less significant and the experience will overall be easier and less time consuming to set up, I fear that if I spend the 2K on a star tracker and small refractor, that I will not be able to upgrade to a nicer setup in a near future. Also there are little to no opportunity to resell this type of used equipment here, which means that I would need another 4K budget to upgrade. I also fear that a steeper learning curve from an actual mount and scope could stop me from really enjoying the hobby. Any advice/suggestion?

Sorry for the long post and if I am in the wrong forum section, and thank you in advance for your feedback!

Dsmith79

Jul 28, 2021

The best advice I could give is to get a mount if you are able to. You'll learn more by necessity with a full equatorial mount than you will with a star tracker. And with the tracker you would probably want to upgrade later anyway. Yes the learning curve is steeper, but the key is to take it slow, and adjust your expectations. You won't be taking any jobs at NASA to start. Your images will be modest at best, but keep at it. I have to remind myself that its not just the result that I'm after, but the progress towards that result.
As to budget, the general rule is that the larger portion should go to the mount. You'll have less frustration and produce far better work with a better mount and a lesser scope. A good scope on a bad mount is a recipe for heartache. The single most important part of DSO astrophotography is being able to expose with stable tracking and no vibration, without that none of the rest of it matters. The eq6r-pro is a great choice, though it is quite heavy. I started out with an AVX, and a scope that was too heavy for it. The best choice I ever made in this hobby was getting a bigger mount and a smaller scope.
If you haven't already, join the CloudyNights forums. Great source of info.

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Wei-Hao Wang

Jul 29, 2021

If you are into deep sky rather than very wide field, get a real EQ mount, no matter you go for a RedCat or a 80-100mm APO. Goto capability is quite essential for deep sky, which won't be provided by a simple tracker. A real mount is also more future proof.

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Coolhandjo

Jul 29, 2021

Hi. Good question that you ask. I have had both. Many in-fact. I can honestly say that the best set up is the one you use. Both will give you quality at a reasonably short focal length if you guide. I have posted many deep space images on astrobin using a guided star adventurer pro 2. However, the best advice I can give is to learn in small steps. I found that everything to do with astrophotography has a steep learning curve. Some feel best to tracker (Like a SA with an ed72 or Redcat 60ish), whilst others HEq5 with 80 to 100mm refractor. Once you get the BASICS under your belt you will find it easier to upgrade with confidence. Either way congrats in coming into this hobby with EQmod capable mounts, star trackers with auto guiding, and cmos based astro cams which make things WAY easier than the old days of even 10 years ago! Look into setup and set down times, portability, backyard or travel? how much cloud you usually get etc etc.

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Olaf Fritsche

Jul 29, 2021

I own an iOptron Sky Guider and an iOptron CEM70 mount with a 115 mm refractor including filters, autofocuser etc. What do I use for my pictures?

- When I want to take pictures of the milky way or wide field, I have to drive some way and take the Sky Guider.

- For everything else especially DSO, I use the mount and telescope.

So, if you have to go to another place to take pictures, a Star Tracker is great. But if you want to go into deep sky photography, I would recommend a good real mount and a telescope. And don't be afraid of learning to handle all this. It is part of the fun and no rocket science at all.

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Doversole83

Jul 29, 2021 · Edited: Jul 29, 2021

I started with a SkyGuider Pro and a Redcat. It's light, it's extremely fast to setup and you can get really nice results on bright Nebulas.
The blocking factor in my experience will be the camera. A non-modded DSLR will limit your ability to image these emission nebulas, whatever the mount.
A star tracker will force you to learn a few of the basics: how to polar align, how to balance your mount, basic orientation in the Sky (no GoTo there), how to set up an imaging plan (a laptop is really fundamental).
But the short focal lenght will help you start in the hobby, in particular on guiding. No need to guide for short exposures (180s is OK with a Redcat and a decent Polar Alignement).
Yes a good mount will enable you to guide for longer exposures , will be less hassle to frame your DSO target. But it will be expensive, big and heavy. Honestly you can achieve really nice results with a modest Sky Tracker.
I recently bought a proper mount, but the reason is to get a much longer focal lenght scope (RC8, 1600mm). This far exceeds what you can do with a Star tracker. Will I keep the star tracker. Yes, certainly, it's so rapid and easy to set up!
Search in the photo library here images taken with a Redcat or even a Samyang 135. It's not Milky Way pictures, there are loads of wide Nebulas in the sky that are really great with a focal lenght between 135 and 250.

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Veneran

Topic starter

Jul 29, 2021

Thank you all for the comments, this is very insightful and I love reading about your own experiences!

As I won't be on the move and as you suggest investing on a great mount before optics, I think I will go for an actual GEM with goto capabilities. I will probably try to find DSOs myself the first few times, just to get to know my nightsky better, but this will mostly help with multi-star alignment, and, as some of you pointed out, an actual mount is future proof.

I am thinking about what you said and will probably go for a smaller aperture first and focus on bigger targets. This will help me at since it reduces the chance of aiming too far away from my targets (even more so if I am manually pointing at it rather than using the goto function first). This will also keep some room in my budget for unexpected add-ons or as a starting point for an upgrade.

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Jonny Bravo

Jul 29, 2021

The mount is the foundation of your entire system. I started with a Star Adventurer. OK, truth be told, the very first DSO image I took was on a static tripod and a whole lot of very short exposures

. Well, then I bought the SA. I quickly realized it wasn't what I wanted. I ended up then purchasing an iOptron CEM40. My Star Adventurer has been sitting in its box in a closet since.

If I had your 4k budget, I'd probably spend 50% of it on the mount, and then get something like the ASI533MC Pro, the ZWO ASIAir Pro kit (ASI120MM Mini guide camera, 30mm guide scope, ASIAir Pro) and a 60mm refractor. If I still had money leftover, I might pickup a dual band filter (like the ZWO duo-band or Optolong L-eNhance) for the emission nebulae.

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Greg McCall

Jul 31, 2021

Star trackers do not move in declination. This is fine for wide angle Milky Way type photos.
The mounts above the star tracker range move with the earth (RA) and up and down (Dec) to follow an object.
These mounts usually have a computer interface where you can use free software on a computer to control the mount.
Once it's aligned, the software can point the mount to a specific location in the sky (usually called GoTo functionality)
The mount (with guide scope and free guide software) can nudge the mount up and down (dec) or speed up/slow down the rotation (RA)

This functionality is needed for Deep Sky photography and is not available on a star tracker.
This is the core need to get an Equatorial Mount.

Once at that level, "usually" the price will bring higher quality and accuracy and/or be able to carry more weight.

I hope that helps.

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Veneran

Topic starter

Jul 31, 2021

Hey @Greg McCall ,

Thank for the info, this is definitely something one must know before purchasing their first mount/tracker. Now that you are pointing this out, I feel dumb for not noticing that earlier, star trackers do only move on one axis! Uh!

I pretty much had my mind set on getting a GEM, but this confirms it. Thank you so much for writing this comment, I hope this discussion will help other new comers! There are a lot of "Which tracker is best" and "Which mount is best" out there, but very little information on one vs the other. This may sound like an easy question for long time astrophotographers, but really helpful for beginners!

Cheers,

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whereswyatt

Jul 31, 2021

I just started this hobby a month ago with the same questions and budget!

I settled on…
WO Redcat
Heq5pro
Asiair kit with the guide scope and 120 mini
ZWO 533mc pro
L-Extreme filter 2 inch

The ability to run all this via the ASIAIR app is awesome and simple. It took me two nights to get everything dialed. Now I can be polar aligned, focused, on target, guiding, and taking exposures in ~15 minutes. I’m extremely happy with how this combo has performed.

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Veneran

Topic starter

Jul 31, 2021

@whereswyatt very nice! You are giving me hope!

I'm thinking about almost exactly the same setup, however since I'll be imaging with my DSLR, thus saving costs on the camera, I'm thinking about either going for a longer focal length telescope such as a WO ZS81 or WO GT71 w/ 0.8x flattner/reducer (effective f/4.9~) which would help with my non-modified camera, or "future proofing" my mount and going for an EQ6R-Pro (way heavier, but will handle bigger scopes once I really get into it). Not decided yet.

15 minutes is impressive! Are you doing the polar alignement through the built-in polar scope or using a computer?

Greg McCall

Jul 31, 2021

Re exposures, the need for long ones I think relates more back to the days of CCDs which had a high read noise so you had to get a larger signal to get over that noise. (ie. to get a good SNR) Also, nowadays, light pollution is getting worse. I think you will find shorter exposures are the better alternative with CMOS technology.
This YouTube is probably a good starting point re exposure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RH93UvP358

Re EQ6R, good plan to go a bit bigger. Better to near future proof (I say near jokingly as you never know later)

Re imaging, I suggest a cooled astro camera. The main reason being 'more imaging time'. You also get the added benefit of less noise with a cooled camera.

Re 'more imaging time'. You should take darks. There are good reasons not to handicap yourself without that calibration stuff (including flats). Some will mention dithering as a substitute for darks. I'm of the thought that you do whatever you can to improve your images so do dithering and take darks.
With a cooled astro camera, you can set a temperature, say -10C, and take all your (light) images in the dark without wasting time taking darks.

The darks problem. You should take about 25 or more darks at the same exposure length and temperature as the lights. The darks can take a couple of hours for say 25 x 4 minute exposures (that's for colour or OSC. Heaps longer for different exposures with different filters using a mono camera)
The advantage of a cooled astro camera is doing darks at home, using no imaging time.
At home, you set up in the dark (stop light leakage of cover gear) with the telescope cap on, set the camera to your cooled temperature that was used for lights (-10C in the example) and let it go for the few hours.

Then take advantage of the setup before you disassemble your image train, do your flats at home (with a light panel)
(if you disassemble your camera or even turn it a bit, then you will not get flats with the exact same dust spots or vignetting as in the light frames so do flats straight after the imaging outing)

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Greg McCall

Jul 31, 2021

BTW, in learning to set up the EQ mount, you will need to be able to point it in the correct starting direction and altitude using the knobs at the base of the mount. This is polar alignment.
If you are in the southern hemisphere (as I am) I would suggest don't even try to use a polar scope built into the mount. Even in the northern hemisphere, it can be a pain and depending on your latitude, you might need to be a bit flexible to bend yourself at the necessary angles to look through the scope
I suggest using software.
So if you choose the ASIair option, use the built in polar alignment, or if you choose the windows computer option, use SharpCap polar alignment or consider NINA with it's new 3 star alignment routine as of the latest nightly build.

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Veneran

Topic starter

Jul 31, 2021

@Greg McCall you are a gold mine of information! I am in the Northern Hemisphere thus I will be looking for Polaris. At first, I may try to align manually through the mount's polar scope just to be proud to say that I can do it, but since I'm going for a goto mount, I will for sure be using a computer and doing 3-star alignment at some point.

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Greg McCall

Aug 1, 2021

Just to be clear, polar alignment is different to either getting a mount handset or a computer replacement such as EQMOD to do a 3 star alignment. These 3 star alignments are to improve pointing accuracy in the sky. Other pointing helpers like plate solving and pointing models in up market mounts.

polar alignment is something you do before anything else. Can Even be done before turning on the mount if doing it manually

Options are software built into ASIair, sharpcap, NINA’s new 3point polar alignment or even a polar alignment 3 point built into the mount’s handset.

so polar alignment and the traditional 3 point alignment are different for different parts of your setup but beginners can get them mixed up, particularly when you can do 3 point alignment for polar setup but you still could do 3 point model later or use plate solving

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whereswyatt

Aug 1, 2021

15 minutes is impressive! Are you doing the polar alignement through the built-in polar scope or using a computer?

Everything is handled through the Asiair app on my phone or tablet. No need to look through the polar scope.

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Greg McCall

Aug 1, 2021

Exactly, no real need for polar scope with computer apps now a days.
Also, you can start by setting the Az screws so the pin from the tripod is in the middle and then aligning the mount with, in your case, with true north (not magnetic north).
I prefer a real magnetic compass as I find the mobile compass is not so accurate.

And initial adjustment of the Alt screws so mount RA angle is at the same angle as your location's latitude (ie. GPS lat/long) will get you off to a good start with polar alignment.

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Olaf Fritsche

Aug 1, 2021

Fortunately, almost all the tips here coincide with my own experience. Therefore, only a few comments:

- If you don't have to drive to the observation point first, a proper mount is certainly the better choice. Although you can also record some DSO with a Star Tracker. The correction in Dec is not necessary for many objects as long as the magnification is not too high.

- It is usually advisable to buy the larger mount right at the beginning. Almost always one wants a heavier telescope later, which a small mount cannot carry.

- Especially for beginners I recommend the ASIair Pro. This small computer takes over many tasks and is very easy to use. Okay, you can also do all the functions with free software on your own laptop and have more setting options. But that makes the start much more complicated. The simplification is well worth the money for the ASIair.

- Also for beginners who want to buy a special astro camera, I would recommend a Monochrome camera. It costs more because you also need a filter wheel and filters, and that makes it more complicated to use. But only with this the use of narrowband filters makes unlimited sense. And these filters are very important for DSO images. Better save a little longer and practice with the DSLR and then buy a monochrome camera.

- What is still missing in the list is the leaf blower with which you can blow away clouds. This is actually the most important tool, but no provider has it in their portfolio. Strange …

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Veneran

Topic starter

Aug 1, 2021

Olaf Fritsche:
What is still missing in the list is the leaf blower with which you can blow away clouds. This is actually the most important tool, but no provider has it in their portfolio. Strange ...

I'll keep an eye on new releases and be sure to buy it as soon as it comes out! Haha
Thank you for sharing your experience!

bluespeck

Aug 10, 2021

Hi Veneran,

There have already been a lot of good suggestions made by others, but I thought that I might add some feedback from my own personal "novice" experiences.

I started my astrophotography journey a couple of years ago. I already owned a decent DSLR, tripod and a couple of lenses that would take my range from 24mm to 200mm so my first astro purchase was a Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer tracker. It worked great and really got me hooked on imaging the night sky. It's only real downside was that my DSLR and 70-200mm lens combo seemed to be heavy for the Star Adventurer and balance was sometimes an issue.

About a year ago I purchased a William Optics Zenithstar 61 (Z61). I found focusing the Z61 to be so much easier and more accurate than focusing a standard camera zoom lens. I think that the Z61 (with field-flattener) also wins over the camera lens as stars appear sharper and more round towards the edges of the frame. I had fun with this set up but once again, balancing the Star Adventurer with this weight was a bit of a problem. I jerry-rigged an extension for the counter weight bar and that helped a bit.

About six months ago I upgraded the Star Adventurer to a Sky-Watcher HEQ5 equatorial mount. Wow… what a difference! Yes there was a little bit of a learning curve, but once I got accustomed to the HEQ5, I actually found set up to be faster and balance and alignment much more accurate. I found the addition of "Go To" star alignment and target slewing to be a huge plus. I also found the additional weight and solid build of the HEQ5 to be a big benefit over the lighter duty Star Adventurer, especially when there is any wind. The only downside to the HEQ5 was that it was much heavier to carry than the little Star Adventurer on a tripod.

The other important consideration I had when upgrading from the Star Adventurer to the HEQ5 was ensuring that it would remain adequate if and when I decided to upgrade my telescope. With a 30lb payload capacity I think that it should serve me well for a long time.

Bottom line… I still use the Star Adventurer (with DSLR and various lenses) for imaging the Milky Way, meteor showers, night sky landscape, etc, but for large deep space targets (eg. nebulas, galaxies and star clusters) I am very pleased with the combination of my Zenithstar 61 scope, DSLR and HEQ5 mount.

I am still learning and practicing and think that my current set up serves me well. At some point in time I suspect that I will want to upgrade my DSLR to a CCD camera and my small 61mm refractor to something a little larger… nothing too big, but perhaps something around 100mm.

I hope that this beginners perspective helps a little. Good luck with whatever you decide and have fun. 😁

is

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