Remote imaging, anyone? - Forums

Topic starter

Jun 30, 2021

I live under Bortle 7, I know, like many of us. My skies here will never improve. Plus I am not an "ace" at AP or processing. But…

I have been interested in leasing a pier at a dark site. I have contacted several who had no vacancies.
But one in SW New Mexico is constructing a second, roll off roof building that will be available in the fall. I'm on a waiting list for it, so it may NOT happen.

The cost of these pier leases (for a year per lease) are not insignificant. Probably 10k a year, and of course you supply everything above the pier.

But with 1 or more "partners" the cost obviously comes down a lot per person. It is still something for people who are committed to the hobby and have "means". I have read that partners enjoy having each other to discuss problems and challenges.
Right now, I own a RASA 8, great scope but not really appropriate for remote control (no EFW). So I believe most people go for triplet refractors (not etched in stone however). Then they agree on the other equipment, and agree to let everyone pick targets and share the data wherever they live.

Has anyone here participated in a venture like this? What were your experiences?
Is anyone interested (in principle at least) in going in on something like this?

Please feel free to comment.

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Olaf Fritsche

Jul 1, 2021

Did you ever think of renting a remote telescope just for some hours.
For example with telescope.live. (There may be other providers.)
Here is a review of this service.
It would be much cheaper, and you would have the opportunity to use telescopes of different kinds, aperture, and focal length as well as telescopes at different locations.

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Graham

Jul 1, 2021 · Edited: Jul 1, 2021

I have been trying out a trial membership for Telescope Live for the past month. This service has the backing of several 'big names' in the UK Astrophotography scene including Damien Peach. While I have not used their 'advanced request' option (i.e. exclusive use of a scope) the datasets received so far have been excellent. Further, with their equipment based in Spain, Australia, and Chile, they have a huge portion of the day and sky covered. Additionally, you can access their database of image data as well as offering a mentoring service. Overall, I am impressed with Telescope Live and while using their scopes for your own specific imaging is not cheap, it is considerably less and more flexible than owning the equipment outright.

As such, I will be renewing my membership at the cheapest option as I already have a Slooh subscription.

Hope this is helpful

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Scott Badger

Jul 1, 2021 · Edited: Jul 1, 2021

As the backorder situation for my first scope dragged on, I tried iTelescope.net to get started, especially to get going with the processing learning curve. I was very happy with images I got, but scheduling can be a challenge when there are a lot of others also reserving time, and everyone reserving extra backup time in case of poor weather….. Also, with iTelescope at least, the subscription structure is a little difficult if you're only planning on a one time use instead of an ongoing membership. It's a 30 day subscription where you pay for telescope time up front and the amount you pay then determines the cost/hr of any particular scope you reserve time on. But if you don't finish imaging and/or use up your credit by the end of the 30 days, you then have to renew your subscription with another up-front payment to keep going which will likely give you more than enough credit to finish imaging your intended object, but not enough to complete another…..and around again you go.

Other than the scheduling headaches, the only real negative was going from the high quality, well calibrated data from iTelescope to the not so great, unguided first efforts of my own when the backordered scope finally arrived……

Cheers,
Scott

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Paul Wilson

Topic starter

Jul 1, 2021

Well, what I am talking about is telescope hosting, not renting time on a scope.
I have a harder time thinking a rental of time on someone else’s equipment is really “my” photo.
What I want to do is rent the pier and put my own scope, mount, and camera on it.
This means the clock is not ticking by the hour.
Also by these means, a partner can agree on the target and independently download the data. So results can be compared and whoever is the weakest processor (likely me) can hope to quickly improve results.
If you schedule a scope appointment, you are rolling the dice on what the conditions will be that particular evening. I found this out the hard way recently when I drove 8 hours to the dark skies only to get 3 cloudy nights.
Im looking for someone to partner on a scope hosting pier contract for at least one year.
Interested parties please check out Dark Sky New Mexico.
I would plan to install the equipment myself and travel there in person every few months for adjustments and/or repairs.

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Scott Badger

Jul 1, 2021

I agree with the 'my photo' aspect, and to that point once I got my own equipment I found myself no longer showing off my iTelescope images and instead forced friends and family to 'admire' the crappier images from my own scope…… That said, for me at least the lines are pretty blurred. If I were to use data that someone else acquired, I would not call the resulting image 'my own' even if I did the processing, but the difference between that and data I get off iTelescope is pretty fine even though I determine object, time, exposure, number of subs etc. But at the same time, the line between data I collect remotely on someone else's equipment and collected remotely on my own equipment also seems pretty thin….. Not that I don't share your sentiment, Paul, but also not sure I can rationalize it.

Admittedly, I'm preaching from a bortle 2/3 home site and if I needed to travel for dark skies, having my own equipment at a hosting site is something I would definitely consider.

Cheers,
Scott

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GoldfieldAstro

Jul 2, 2021

There really is a lot of personal preference in this discussion and the concept of "I didn't capture it so it isn't mine" is a very valid one. In the wider photography community this is the common thought but it really does get stretched on some of the photography tours. A few years ago a friend of ours went on, if I remember correctly, a Ken Duncan tour and one of the photos they captured was a boat next to a jetty at sunset; it was beautiful. What you don't see is the team of people raking the copious amounts of reeds out of the frame and keeping it in that pristine condition. They pretty much tell you the settings to use, where to stand and how to frame it to get the "perfect shot". At the end of it you and 20 others have near identical images which have been taken with your own equipment but it is someone elses image; their vision.

In astrophotography the final image is very dependant on the individual processing. There are image that we've personally spent more time processing the data than capturing it! One you have a reasonably automated system up and running it is a bit sit and forget and that's where processing becomes the real challenge.

We don't currently offer piers and don't plan to in the near future but we do know of two other future spots in Australia that will be opening up this year for space.

If you're interested in a collaboration then it may be worth getting in contact with the SRO team as there have been a few collaborate teams in there that may be looking for more numbers.

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Cedric Raguenaud

Jul 2, 2021 · Edited: Jul 2, 2021

Paul,

I have a little bit of experience with remote hosting: I've co-owned a Taka 130 hosted at E-EYE in the South of Spain for 3 years now, and I'm installing a second one, a 14" RC there in a month time for myself.

The advice I can give you is:
- Don't under-estimate the cost. Good hardware is expensive, but good remote hardware is more expensive. You'll need things you can rely on for long periods of time without maintenance. For example we had remote switches that we bought on amazon (not cheap) and they failed fast. I ended up having to replace them with Raspberry pis and relays with a separate power surge protection (+ home made software).
- Make sure all the hardware is appropriate for the weather conditions all year round. For example make sure your mount won't freeze in the winter. Make sure your computer won't fry in the summer heat. Plan to install ventilation. Maybe heating bands around some of the mount for the winter if the nights are really cold (-10C or -20C can start to create serious problems).
- Don't imagine that once you have things installed that's it, only the monthly rental to pay. You'll want to upgrade and change things as you discover what the conditions are like (e.g. too hot in the summer for youor camera's cooling, super dark skies that allow you deeper target therefore you'll want more focal, etc). It's a never ending expense.
- Draw electrical, network, and software plans. Also take a lot of photos of the setup so that if someone intervenes on it, you can direct them precisely to what you want them to do and where things are.
- Intall a lot of cameras. On our shared setup we have 2 cameras pointing at the telescope (different angles). It's not enough. For my own setup I have 6, including one that points to the main mirror to check on dew. Make sure these cameras are super sensitive because you won't be able to have a light source (in shared observatories, switching on the light to see things is a no-no: you mess up other people's images).
- If you buy hardware with other people, make sure to create a legal structure around the ownership of everything that clearly covers all cases.
- Make sure you get along with the people you get involved with very well. It's easy to fall out with people and then you run into trouble.
- You'll need a number of core compentencies if you want things to work well:
- Someone who understand telescopes/mounts/optics quite well. Well enough to diagnose issues remotely without being able to touch anything. For example I had to diagnose a lose screw holding our guiding camera (in OAG) once solely based on the distortions we could see in images at certain angles (but not at others).
- Someone who can write software. You can get by with just buying software for simple setups, but as soon as you want good remote control, you'll need to write code. I've written a lot of code for our shared setup, and even more for my own, e.g. dashboard control, reports, monitoring, failover management, drivers for special hardware or functions (e.g. weather monitoring, safety monitor), log parser for journal, etc.
- Someone competent in electricity/electronics. You'll have to wire (for power and data) a lot of things (cameras, mount, dew prevention, remote devices such as weather).
- Test a lot before you install your hardware remotely. Once it's remote maintenance is very difficult. In our case it's a 1200km motorway trip, but if you host on another continent it's essentially impossible to go and fix things. Everything has to work perfectly for about 6 months in local remote conditions before you can consider sending the hardware to your hosting site.

If you cover all these, you'll have a great time. Remote controlled observatories are creat fun.

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Scott Badger

Jul 2, 2021

Though processing is reliant on acquisition, and acquisition on setup, I agree with GoldfieldAstro that it's processing where you most distinguish an AP image as your own, especially when there are no reeds to rake and only one spot to stand in. If I couldn't do AP in my backyard, I would travel and consider renting pier space, and if that wasn't a possibility, I would, as I've done, use something like iTelescope. But as much as I enjoy the processing part of it, for me there's still a difference in my own sense of accomplishment between the iTelescope image and the one requiring as many layers as possible in the winter and a mosquito net in the summer.

Speaking strictly personally, and even though I got into AP as another form of photography, I would now find any 'remote' acquisition, even in my backyard, as lacking in what has become the most profound part of the experience for me – simply being outside under the stars, reaching out/connected to them with my scope. It's been a very long time since I've tied a fly, but for me AP is very much like fishing, and in particular fly fishing. Most fly fisherman I know work hard at perfecting their cast, and proudly tell their stories about the 'big one', but more than anything, they do it simply for the time spent standing in a mountain stream connected to it by their rod and line. Again, a personal thing, and possible in the first place by my somewhat unique fortune of living in a very rural area with a backyard that abuts the National Forest.

Cheers,
Scott

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Paul Wilson

Topic starter

Jul 2, 2021

It's a fine difference. But I started off with my own equipment, and I hope I will still set up in my driveway even if I have a remote setup.

I also totally appreciate the "being out under the stars" aspect. Though this may be something more important to visual observers than AP guys. At home, I have to look up at a Bortle 7 sky. On good nights, I can make out the major constellations, and I can see Polaris because I know the spot it's always in.

Looking up is magical, and using star hopping to find a target requires experience and skill. But…those people still don't see what we see in a photo, and they can't replay it on their retinas any time they choose as we can.

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Scott Badger

Jul 2, 2021

It did occur to me that the sentiment I expressed sounded more ‘observer’ than photographer, but I don’t think necessarily the case. At least for me it isn’t….though I occaisionally wonder what a galaxy or nebula that I’m imaging looks like through an eyepiece, not enough to actually put on on since probably the second night out with my scope…..

The great thing about AP though, is that it involves so many interests; from astronomical science and study, to engineering, to the craft of acquisition, to the craft and art of processing, and though one or the other might lead our interests, they all require such effort that I can’t imagine sticking with it for long unless I got something out of all of it.

Matthew Proulx

Jul 2, 2021 · Edited: Jul 2, 2021

Scott Badger:
Though processing is reliant on acquisition, and acquisition on setup, I agree with GoldfieldAstro that it's processing where you most distinguish an AP image as your own, especially when there are no reeds to rake and only one spot to stand in. If I couldn't do AP in my backyard, I would travel and consider renting pier space, and if that wasn't a possibility, I would, as I've done, use something like iTelescope. But as much as I enjoy the processing part of it, for me there's still a difference in my own sense of accomplishment between the iTelescope image and the one requiring as many layers as possible in the winter and a mosquito net in the summer.

Speaking strictly personally, and even though I got into AP as another form of photography, I would now find any 'remote' acquisition, even in my backyard, as lacking in what has become the most profound part of the experience for me -- simply being outside under the stars, reaching out/connected to them with my scope. It's been a very long time since I've tied a fly, but for me AP is very much like fishing, and in particular fly fishing. Most fly fisherman I know work hard at perfecting their cast, and proudly tell their stories about the 'big one', but more than anything, they do it simply for the time spent standing in a mountain stream connected to it by their rod and line. Again, a personal thing, and possible in the first place by my somewhat unique fortune of living in a very rural area with a backyard that abuts the National Forest.

Cheers,
Scott

I love remote imaging 50 feet from my shed in the comfort of my house. Its better than freezing to death or getting eaten by mosquitos. I also go to sleep lots of the time because someone has to pay for all of this stuff. I just had an 8 day run so theres no way I'm gonna babysit outside for 8 days.
And I do have the unique fortune also of living on the edge of bortle 2/3 on the lonesome prairies.

Paul Wilson

Topic starter

Jul 2, 2021

I lived my life in the sky. No one loves it more than me.
But I can’t really move to the desert either.
Im trying to learn to process better and it’s a steep grade up. Always problems.
I will try to climb as long as there’s life left.

Scott Badger

Jul 3, 2021

I usually go to bed after a few hours, with a couple wake up alarms to check everything and get darks started pre-dawn. Of course, Murphy’s law insures Sunday nights are clear since Monday mornings are the earliest for work….And yeah, mosquitos suck! (…..) Also probably a little odd in my like of the cold…..15-20F is my optimim but down to -5F is fine. (fwiw, I’m actually a wimp when it comes to getting cold, but with up to 7 layers, hand warmers in my boots and pockets, and an arctic parka when necessary…..)

Ross Salinger

Jul 3, 2021

Paul -

My bias is to have a fully automated remote system and not to have to play around with it. I no longer enjoy troubleshooting equipment and I try to upgrade the core components of my imaging systems maybe once a year. With that context ——

I got started in remote imaging sharing someone else's system for about a year. We had an arrangement of taking alternate nights and our own accounts (and software) on a shared computer. That way we we each produced our own data and solved our own problems. What that experience taught me was that I needed to invest in the right equipment and software for remote imaging if I wanted a reliable resilient system.

At this point I have my own two pier system about 90 miles from my house. Along the way, over 5 years I used 5 different remote sites. If you PM me I'll tell you what I think about each of them but it's always YMMV and things change at these places.

I selected my hardware and software to avoid a lot of problems that I've noticed over the years myself or read about online or talk to other imagers about.

As an example, I don't need a camera to see if there is dew or not on my main mirror. I have a calibrated weather system (hardware and software) that I trust and I close the roof when the humidity hits 90 percent. My telescope has heaters that work automatically and turn themselves on and off. It's the right combination of hardware and software that let's me fire up a run and go to sleep.

As another example, without writing a line of code all my images get uploaded to a google drive as they are being taken. I just download the results in the AM while drinking my coffee. (It's nice to be retired.) Without writing a line of code, my image analysis program runs interactively. If I get up during the night I can just tell if my run is going well by looking at the screen.

So, buy the right stuff in the first place - the mount is king, but the software is the queen. Too many people try to save money on their systems and end up with limited functionality as a result. It's not just a question of taking what you have and moving it.

Make sure that the terms and conditions are spelled out in writing if you take on partners. It doesn't matter if you've known them for 10 years or 1 year or only talked on the phone. Getting things straight from the beginning - including how to dissolve the relationship - gives you confidence of a good outcome if things go pear shaped.

Above all, find some people who are doing this and see if you can talk on the phone about their experiences. These internet forums are not the best means of communicating complex ideas.

Rgrds-Ross

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Cedric Raguenaud

Jul 8, 2021

Ross,

With Google drive you don't need to download in the morning: you can setup up the share so that images are downloaded in real time to your disk. That's what I do, that's really trivial (even if you don't use a Windows system). That way you can do real time processing, e.g. automatic calibration of images (because that's painfully boring to do manually on hundreds or thousands of images at a time), real time stacking, distribution to a group of users, etc. Something that simple is a given for remote systems.

I guess you're lucky to be able to not image at 90%+ humidity. With the oceanic climate we have in Western Europe and a bit of altitude that would mean losing half the year or more, dew heaters or not. And not everybody uses small refractors. With a large RC (say 14" or 16") dew heaters won't be much use unless you put them directly on the main and secondary mirrors, which causes a number of other problems. So in these conditions you need to know if you need to dry the main mirror before you start your session. The best way is to have a camera to show you.

You're also lucky to be 90 miles away, which means you can go to your hosted setup wherever you like. Every day even if you like. It makes life so much easier. With thousands of km of distance, sometimes half the planet, it's not possible. You end up having to deal with an unfamiliar climate, different time zones, different night patterns, etc. Proper remote adds a level of complexity and uncertainty. Also the impossibliity to intervene on the setup for months or years makes things very challenging: you need to plan for failure and disaster recovery at every level. It's a different mindset: you have to build in redundancy (e.g. have several ways to control things, backup systems you can switch to remotely). In essence you need to think like NASA.

Of course you can do without writing code. Lots of people do it. If you don't want a dashboard that summarises the state of your setup in real time (state of hardware, where your telescope points with images, etc; my setup even tweets what it does with images, even my weather station tweets updates), if you don't need control of all devices individually or if you don't have a complex setup that you don't want entirely powered all the time (several scopes, several cameras, OAG+guiding scope), heaters for scopes/cameras/mounts that need to be switched on/off independently and according to differing conditions (e.g. mount at -10C, scopes based on combination of humidity+temperature), if you don't need automatic start/stop of sessions for compltely autonomous imaging (e.g. based on altitude of target and on liminosity), if you don't want nightly videos made of your sessions and you don't want them posted automatically to youtube for your users. Lots of other things won't come in a convenient off the shelf package. Obviously you can do without writing code. But you can automate more and do more with your setup if you can.

Thanks.

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Ross Salinger

Jul 8, 2021 · Edited: Jul 8, 2021

I'm going to look into how to get my GDrive to download automatically, it can't be that hard! So thanks for the tip. I don't think that the weather here is really the issue but different strokes for different folks, horses for courses, YMMV and all that always prevails.

I was careful in selecting my equipment with remote imaging in mind. That's why I bought a PlaneWave Telescope 5 years ago. The factory installed dew heaters and fans come on and off based on the weather. There's a GUI that you use to tune them that runs independently of your imaging system. That's also why I bought my Paramount as these cannot get permanently lost (even if some idiot moves the mount when it's powered off). I home it every night before starting. The built in hub and power in the Paramount means no dangling cables - nothing that can ever prevent a flip or get snagged (by the idiot who likes to move the mount when it's not powered). The LIPO battery packs come with an app to monitor their state over the internet. Again, I tried to buy stuff that would keep my interactions with the remote system to a minimum. Each systems is controlled by a digital logger so I can turn most things on and off at will. Again, wouldn't be without those boxes.

That same system ran for months on end in New Mexico for about 3 years over a thousand miles from my house. The only visits I made were to replace a broken camera, to bring back the scope due to bird poop on the mirror (don't ask), and trying to fix what turned out to be a poorly anchored pier (I missed on that one). On two occasions I asked to have the mesh adjusted when I got motor stalls. That was it. I would not put a system anyplace where there wasn't a reasonably knowledgeable person available most of the time.

Once my systems are running, I go to sleep if it's late or do something else if it's not. I am comfortable monitoring things with the combination of CCD Inspector and CCD Autopilot. CCDI gives me FWHM information and the CCD AutoPilot log tells me if there are any issues with focus or connectivity. Again, I selected those components based on what my experience was with a shared system at New Mexico Skies.

Maybe I'm too conservative but every time I add any complexity to my remote systems, I'm making that 180 mile round trip to fix it more than once. One thing that's a real advantage is that unless one of my partners are out at the site, I can control everything to my taste - the systems read the weather and shut down if it's bad. The roof system reads the same weather and closes the roof with the same parameters.

I used to be a programmer, but now I've discovered that I can be a systems integrator instead. I have to admit, though, that sometimes I do get the urge to write some code. Then I remember that the more complexity I add, the more trips I'm going to have to take. Honestly, the only thing I do with my cameras is watch the roof motor to make sure that there's no slippage or stalling as the roof opens.

Rgrds-Ross

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Scott Badger

Jul 8, 2021

As I said, along with the imaging, the star-gazing experience (even without a scope with an eyepiece) is still very much part of what motivates me, but I'm also in awe of the systems engineering that goes into a remote setup and can appreciate (even if not capable of) the accomplishment of putting a system like that together successfully.

Cheers,
Scott