Noob advice wanted please

AppalachianAstroworksDaniel Erickson
30 replies592 views
AppalachianAstroworks avatar
Ladies and Gentlemen, 

I’ve had a few successful nights capturing lights with my current setup, yet I have been having some issues I’d like some advice about.  

    GEAR: William Optics Zenithstar 81, WO guidescope, ASI294, ASIAir Pro, EQ6-R Pro Mount

     ISSUES: I have been able to capture some good light frames, yet I’m unsure how long I need to expose for.  So far I’ve just been exposing for as long as possible without trailing. However, I’m a little unclear on how many of these exposures are a good number to get for DSOs.   Also, I’m a little unclear about taking Darks, and Flats.  From what I’ve been reading I don’t need to do bias frames, yet same question for darks and flats.  Is it possible to have these done already and just stack my lights with them? 

    Also, I had an issue with the ASIAir last time I was out.  The WiFi kept dropping connection.  Even with my iPad being right next to the unit.  Anyone else have these problems? Firmware is up-to-date and my power supply had a full charge.  It was pretty frustrating. 

      Processing: I have tried to use PixInsight on my MacBook Air with some extremely limited success.  Yet, I’m not at the point I would like to be.  The attached picture is just about a dozen 5 minute light frames, as I’m not sure how many to do or for how long.  And I didn’t have the know how to add darks, etc.
Along with this, I would like to see what advice I could get for processing on a new machine. I have used Apple products for the last 30 years and that’s what I’m comfortable with. I’d like to upgrade my MacBook to a Pro, yet I am having trouble selecting easy-to-use software for stacking.  
I would also appreciate someone providing a simple to follow guide for processing data.  I’d love a way to just get all my subs together and ready for photoshopping.  
Also, how do you get those nice pointy stars to come out when processing?

Thanks for bearing with a new user!  Any help I can get will be most appreciated!  
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Clint avatar
Hi @DubbleOHnegative and welcome!
Ok, so exposure is a very tricky thing with lots of factors that I'm going to leave alone (mostly) as there are others on here who are much more experienced than me.

The one comment I would make is that 5 min subs for Orion _have_ to be paired with shorter exposures to build an HDR composite. You can see this in the image you shared. The core of Orion (and a lot of the stars) are completely blown out.

I don't know how important bias frames are for a cooled camera. someone else will need to chime in there.

Flats should be taken with every imaging session as part of their purpose is to 'remove' things like sensor/lens dust from the final image as well as correcting for things like vignetting. Depending on how long your flat exposure time is, you may need to take dark flats as well (darks that are the same exposure time as the flats).

you almost certainly need darks because the ASI1294 can show amp glow and you need darks to remove that.
You can create a library of master darks but they will have to be retaken every so often (I think I've heard either of 3 or 6 months most often)

If you have already bought PixInsight, buckle up and buckle down. Tons of great youtube tutorials on it and the PixInsight forums are really helpful. there are even a few books on it! Use the Weighted Batch Pre-Processing Script for your basic calibration and integration.

If you haven't bought PixInsight, you might want to look at Siril. It's a little rough around the edges but has a much more streamlined workflow compared to PixInsight. @Daniel Erickson might be able to provide some insight on SiriL

I believe that CMOS sensors are notorius for 'star bloat'. shorter subs or doing an HDR composite of longer and shorter subs will help. There are also post-processing techniques for reducing star size (in PixInsight, there is even a plugin called 'EZ processing suite' that has a script for star size reduction)

Hope that helps!

Clear Skies,
Clint
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AppalachianAstroworks avatar
Clint, Thanks so much for the feedback!  

It’s funny you mentioned SiriL I just looked into that today and watched a very informative YouTube video about it.  I may end up going that route.  I didn’t yet purchase PixInsight as I did all of this with a trial which has since expired.  

If I understand you correctly I should have taken some shorter exposures on Orion to mix in with the long ones? I noticed that nothing I did would take away that blown out look.  This was the best I could do with what little data I had on it.  

So a Master dark could be taken and used for different exposure lengths on the light subs? That’s kind of what I’m after.  As a full-time pilot, part time student working on a Bachelor’s Degree; time is fairly limited to me.  There’s a bit of a learning curve when it comes to processing.  There are so many options to choose from it’s a little overwhelming to even figure out where to start. 

I’d like to get this stuff down by the time October rolls around.  Cherry Springs isn’t too far from me, and I’d love to attend the Black Forest Star Party to get some really great photos.  

Thanks again for the help!
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Clint avatar
FWIW, here's what an HDR composite can do for you with M42:


M42 - HDR

Details are in the technical card
Daniel Erickson avatar
Clint:
If you haven't bought PixInsight, you might want to look at Siril. It's a little rough around the edges but has a much more streamlined workflow compared to PixInsight. @Daniel Erickson might be able to provide some insight on SiriL


Thanks, @Clint ! Sure, I'm happy to help anybody, provided they understand my well-known beginner-mind limitations! :-)

@DubbleOHnegative Although this might be too soon to digest, I really recommend you watch Robin Glover's seminal video on exposure, bookmark it, and return to it again and again.
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AppalachianAstroworks avatar
Clint:
FWIW, here's what an HDR composite can do for you with M42:


Thanks Clint that looks pretty awesome!  That’s the kind of stuff I’m after.  I really love all the points you got on the stars too.
AppalachianAstroworks avatar
Daniel Erickson:
Clint:
If you haven't bought PixInsight, you might want to look at Siril. It's a little rough around the edges but has a much more streamlined workflow compared to PixInsight. @Daniel Erickson might be able to provide some insight on SiriL


Thanks, @Clint ! Sure, I'm happy to help anybody, provided they understand my well-known beginner-mind limitations! :-)

@DubbleOHnegative Although this might be too soon to digest, I really recommend you watch Robin Glover's seminal video on exposure, bookmark it, and return to it again and again.

Thanks very much @Daniel Erickson — I’ve bookmarked it and will follow your advice to the letter.  That should take some of the guesswork out of things.
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Clint avatar
@DubbleOHnegative are you commenting and then deleting? I keep getting notifications that you commented here but then there isn’t a comment???
AppalachianAstroworks avatar
Clint, no I hit reply on here.  Not sure why you aren’t getting the posts
wsg avatar
Double ONeg:
 The best general advise I can give to you is to study other peoples images here on Astrobin of targets you want to try and read their technical cards. You should try to find members with similar equipment to you and experiment with the settings they use.  Unfortunately the reality is that there are no shortcuts, you have to learn the basics and then dive head first into complex processing tools like Pixinsight.  Clint is right about this.  I own an asi294 and it is a great camera and star bloating is not necessarily a problem with it or any CMOS camera if it is used appropriately as the target and seeing demands.  The linked image was taken with 30 second exposures only.


M42, Running Man 2020 Reprocess, OSC
  

Most people have a set of darks for each camera they own as a library with settings at set temperatures and gains.  Most keep the same cooling temperature and shoot at a small variety of gain settings for stream lining their calibration.  All  my dark frames are at -10'C because that is a temperature my camera can achieve all year long.  Flat frames should be applied as stated earlier.

You should learn how to stack in Pixinsight in WBPP and in Star Alignment with Imageintegration.  I have been Mac for 30 years also, I do ALL my processing with PI and Photoshop only. 

Hope this helps,

scott
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Björn Arnold avatar
Hi,

You can experiment a bit. A good advice for an object like M42 would be to shoot with lower gain to allow for larger dynamic range. Then, also try rather short exposures. As @Daniel Erickson advised, watch Glover's presentation. You will notice that subs can become quite short.

I'm always applying Bias, Darks and Flats. Bias are taken once or at least several months apart. With a cooled CMOS, you can build a dark library that might need an update once in a while (also months). For the flats, I recommend buying a flat panel. Very helpful! In case you might look for such a panel, buy a size that might fit the next scope you'll buy (in case you have something in mind). I've bought the size for my 8" SCT which I can use on my 60mm ZenithStar as well.

I'm just adding my M42, shot with my DSLR and 60 second subs. No HDR composite. Next time, I'll go for it with my dedicated mono camera.

CS!
Björn


Messier 42, Orion Nebula
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Astrozeugs avatar
Hi, 
here are my tips:

-Cool your camera to 0 degrees
-use gain 120, so you have a readout noise at around 2e
-use a exposure time around 60-120s
-take darkframes
-take flatframes
-(take bias frames)

Watch youtube Tutorials - Pixinsight is great :-D

Good luck

Regards
Andreas
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AppalachianAstroworks avatar
@wsg thanks for the advice!  That will give me a good idea of what I can pull out of the equipment I’ve got.  So what I’m gathering here is longer isn’t necessarily better as far as exposures go.  Or a mix of long and short can create more stunning pictures. -10˚  Is usually what I’m running as well with a gain of 120.  From what I’ve read that’s a good average setting for the 294.  With the library of darks, would you suggest making master darks each length of light exposure?  For example, having a master dark of say 30 frames at 30 seconds and one at 120 seconds?  Then I would stack all of these together with the lights to make a photo to work in photoshop?  

—Aaron

Bjorn, I’ve actually been looking into printing out a Flats box for my scope on my 3D printer!  Coincidentally I think it’ll work for me as I’m planning on going the other way with my next scope setup. I originally wanted a RASA 8, but after lugging my eq6-r Pro around— more portable is more desirable.  I think a space/redcat with a small skyguider will be the way to go.  Something I can carry in a backpack.  I suppose first thing is to get more proficient at taking flats and darks.  Thanks for the feedback! 

—Aaron

@Astrozeugs Thanks for the workflow! It can be difficult to know where to start and I think this will help to more effectively use the times I can go out and capture.  I’ll definitely be checking out the YouTube University for PixInsight. I have seen a couple but there is so much in that program to learn. I think for what I want to do, that will be my best bet.  Thanks again! 

—Aaron
Rob Calfee avatar
Clint:
FWIW, here's what an HDR composite can do for you with M42:


M42 - HDR

Details are in the technical card


This is a good example of learning all the time. After a year, I had no idea of HDR. There is always something, which I like.  Reading up on that tonight (since the weather sucks here and has for a while). 
Thanks, Clint!

Like everyone has said in this thread. Start with the basics and don’t get frustrated. The first time I got my first target to show up in a sub I almost fainted (Andromeda, and my family thought I was a genius!) Then I added autoguiding, then better PA, then better focus, then tuned autoguiding, then found out about unity gain and light pollution, then filter wheels, and then auto-focusing....I just added and tried out something new almost every outing. And I echo the above about Pixinsight. Don’t get frustrated, just keep trying and following different tutorials. It won’t be as hard as you think. I started out with PI and now I’m combining Topaz Denoise and Lightroom into my processing. It’s a constant exploration. Love this hobby. (But expensive, don’t tell your wife how much you are spending. That’s my marital tip for the year, LOL)

Cheers!
Rob
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AppalachianAstroworks avatar
@Rob Calfee haha thanks, but I’ve been happily divorced for 9 years now!  Why do you think I can have fun hobbies like astrophotography now lol.  No way she would have let me spend hours somewhere overnight, she’d have thought I had a side chick.  I too had an Andromeda experience like that!  It’s thrilling when things come out like that.  I’ve also been keeping track of each session with a notebook—documenting what worked and more importantly what didn’t. I’ve been seeing definite improvement. 

I’ll keep at the PixInsight.  I think I’m in need of upgrading my MacBook. Processing really bogs the MacBook Air down, not that I really know what I’m doing. I was following along with AstroAddict’s tutorial and I quickly became lost.  

Trawling through this site seems to be really helpful as well.  Thanks for the advice!

—Aaron
Rob Calfee avatar
I would like to be more disciplined with my notebook but it is so easy to be impulsive, LOL. Glad you brought that up. 
Just got a new scope yesterday, so I installed and tested an EAF and spent a couple of hours putting together variations of image trains with connectors spread across the kitchen island. It was kind of fun and relaxing. My family thought I was crazy.
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AppalachianAstroworks avatar
The notebook has been one of the best tools I’ve used!  It’s tangible evidence of progress and also shows what I’ve f’d up on. Ooooh new toys!  It’s always fun to put them together.  Even at the expense of familial chagrin lol.
Daniel Erickson avatar
Thanks very much @Daniel Erickson — I’ve bookmarked it and will follow your advice to the letter.  That should take some of the guesswork out of things.


Have a look at my M42 in 42 minutes, by the way. I use two sets of exposures to get the core more properly exposed. All in 42 minutes... You can see it here. Our gear is comparable (yours is better), so you can expect similar results, depending on how you do in post-processing.
AppalachianAstroworks avatar
@Daniel Erickson Woo, gorgeous!  That’s the kind of stuff I’m after here.  BTW, I’m a little jelly of your RedCat.  I’ve been wanting one of those to do a small portable rig.  I’m pretty impressed with the results you can get with that little powerhouse of a scope.
Daniel Erickson avatar
@Daniel Erickson Woo, gorgeous!  That’s the kind of stuff I’m after here.  BTW, I’m a little jelly of your RedCat.  I’ve been wanting one of those to do a small portable rig.  I’m pretty impressed with the results you can get with that little powerhouse of a scope.


Thanks so much, I'm glad you like it! There's quite a community of Cat users, and I'd say we're a dedicated and addicted (to our cats)! It falls short in so many ways, but when it shines, it really shines. And now that I think about it, on M42 I used the Cat with my Canon, not even my ASI183, which is the perfect camera for the scope. Thanks again for the 'gorgeous'!
AppalachianAstroworks avatar
@Daniel Erickson haha I can fully understand that addiction. What are the areas where it falls short?  (Besides it being literally short...) you’re welcome dude, it was a great photo
Daniel Erickson avatar
What are the areas where it falls short?


Hey Aaron!

Well, you said it...literally a short little guy... Actually, with the short focal length small objects are an issue. Planets are generally out. Galaxy season is really difficult for Cat users, and clusters (which I happen to love) are somewhat difficult. You can look at my portfolio and see how small some of the notable galaxies of the season are. I've also imaged a few (open) clusters, but I love to work on clean stars, so their small size doesn't matter so much. It's almost not worth it to shoot these things, but there is at least a small group of us who get some thrills by shooting things that aren't really up to the focal length. So...having said that the Cats "fall short in so many ways", most of the Cat users I talk to couldn't care less. We shoot. :-)
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FiZzZ avatar
I suggest to start with Astropixelprocessor.
is a very good software, less way complicated than PI but still delivers great results.
due to the very streamlined workflow is also a very good way to learn the basics to (maybe) then move on PI with more knowledge of what is going on smile

two things that definitely helped my calibration :
- don’t take bias with a cmos
- take long flats with a cmos (4 secs and up) and accordingly take dark flats.
cmos is not apparently good at very short exposures.

There are a bunch of things to learn and is impossible to shortcut them nor the learn them all before to make mistakes smile
mistakes are an excellent part of this passion smile

enjoy !
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Daniel Erickson avatar
@DubbleOHnegative  I want to go back to your original post now, since I never really addressed all of your issues. :-)

(1) Re: Exposure length. You'll have to experiment to dial this in. Conditions will change it, equipment will change it. Strange things will affect it. You'll have to experiment. Watch the Glover video I recommended as a starting point. One reason people can't really give you a definite answer is because of the number of variables. 

(2) Re: Calibration frames.  @FiZzZ  is right for your camera, I think. Darks, Flats, Dark Flats. You can redo your darks and maybe even flats (Mileage will vary. You can try it and see and if there's a problem, reshoot your calibration frames) My astrofriend  @Clint recently had a problem with calibration frames. You do everything right, but for some reason it just doesn't work...Gotta learn to troubleshoot. With that said, bookmark and watch this video (3 videos, actually) recommended by astrofriend @Jérémie in Clint's thread done by @Adam Block.  Whether you're actually having a problem with calibration or not, Adam's video is important, IMO, to watch and learn from. He's using PI, too, so if that's your poison, it's even more useful. :-)

(3) Re: ASIAir (I have one and use it religiously.) The AAP is notorious for dropping signal. You DON'T put a Wifi system inside a metal box like that. That said, once you start the run, the AAP will do it's job, whether the wifi gets to your iPad or not. Try not to sweat it, but I know it's frustrating to watch the wifi cut out in the middle of a run... If you actually want a solution (I think you will), tie the AAP to an extender or repeater. I won't go into the details, but the simplest answer is here. That solution works, but like most things in this hobby, it requires that you throw money at it and hope it sticks.

(4) Re: Processing. I don't use PI and I have a Mac. For some AP, that's two strikes against me. If so, then I will keep playing because I'm seeing positive results from my efforts. You can stick with PI if you want, but I wanted to ease my way into this as easily as possible and PI is notoriously unfriendly. @FiZzZ suggested APP, and that is good software, I hear...and it works on a Mac.  Siril is free, easy and works really well for basic stacking and processing functions, too. It's what I use. There are a couple of good tutorials I can recommend from reputable YouTubers, if you're interested...or I can write up a workflow.  As far as the Mac goes, you know it's "not a Mac world". We've both lived in it forever and know it. That said, there are Mac solutions to every AP problem and you just have to network to find them.  Processing is rather thorny in the sense that it is very individualized--it depends on the target, the imaging system and the user. Again, there are tons of YouTubers making their living giving out advice on the best way to start out. You can rely on them (at first) if you like, but in this hobby, eventually, you must go your own way. You're all alone in a vast sea of Astrophotographers who are also willing to help. You're a star!

(5) Re: Stars. If you mean diffraction spikes, then there are software solutions. If you have a particular type of telescope (I don't), you get them automatically. There are things you can do to generate them when you shoot, if you like them and that's what you mean... If you mean shooting so you have pinpoints of light, that's another matter. It comes down to focus...but stars are naturally circular light blobs, not pointy things as our eyes see, so you get to make one of many decisions about what you really want to do in your pictures. ;-)

You've gotten a lot of good advice in this thread. I flailed for many months before joining AB. Honestly, I would have probably given it up without the support of all my astrofriends here...but you also have to remember, you will still flail (and fail). I honestly think we fail more times than we succeed. You're just not alone anymore. I'll step off my little soapbox now... my stacking software is done for the day!
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AppalachianAstroworks avatar
I suggest to start with Astropixelprocessor.
is a very good software, less way complicated than PI but still delivers great results.
due to the very streamlined workflow is also a very good way to learn the basics to (maybe) then move on PI with more knowledge of what is going on

two things that definitely helped my calibration :
- don’t take bias with a cmos
- take long flats with a cmos (4 secs and up) and accordingly take dark flats.
cmos is not apparently good at very short exposures.

There are a bunch of things to learn and is impossible to shortcut them nor the learn them all before to make mistakes
mistakes are an excellent part of this passion

enjoy !

@FiZzZ Thanks!  I just checked out the APP website.  Looks like a great program. I’m also coming to learn that mistakes are going to come with the territory; but it’s nice to have a starting point at least!
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