Yellow banding on LRGB image - help!!

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Michael Bate avatar
Hi everyone - I very recently transitioned from a DSLR into LRGB imaging using ASI1600MM and as such just starting to learn the processing techniques required for LRGB data. I've come across some odd banding and hoping someone can point me at the culprit whether it's my data or any processing i've done so far.

Target is M106 with 3 hours integration, 30 x 120L, 20 x R, 18 X G, 20 X B subs. Luminance stack looks good but RGB stack came out with heavy yellow/blue gradient from top right to bottom left. I created a synthetic flat in affinity photo to isolate the gradient and subtract it (using equation feature in AF to prevent subtracting to black point 0). The result is a similar blue/yellow banding but now rather than been a gradient top right to bottom left, it's left yellow/blue banding that seems to zig zag through my image (see first image). I've checked pixel values and nothing seems to look odd but when i boost saturation to check im not just seeing things, I do see the banding show so it's definitely there (see second image).

Anyone come across anything similar before who can help?

thanks
Michael
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Jim DeLillo avatar
Just a guess. How is your alignment?  Bad registration of blue would leave blue pixels and yellow(rg) ghosts.

Jim
Björn Arnold avatar
Hi Michael,

How did you register and combine the channels? Did you do this in Affinity Photo?
I also worked some time with Affinity to combine LRGB data and turned away from it as it handles the color combination IMHO not in the way we would like it. If you follow the Affinity tutorial instructions to recolor a layer to assign it to a channel, you'd be surprised. Also Luminance isn't Luminance. 
I'd point at this process. I could go into more detail but I don't know if you had used Affinity.

For removing the gradient and vignetting, you can use the "calibrate background filter" in Affintiy. It's part since version 1.9.0.

Cheers,
Björn
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Michael Bate avatar
Yes I used Affinity to register and align all channels. I stacked each filter in DSS and brought the stacked tiffs into AP. I used the luminance as a reference image and aligned using the "align by stars" feature to scale and align the RGB channels to LUM. I manually checked the alignment of the layers after and it looked good.
If you follow the Affinity tutorial instructions to recolor a layer to assign it to a channel, you'd be surprised. Also Luminance isn't Luminance. 
I'd point at this process. I could go into more detail but I don't know if you had used Affinity.

For removing the gradient and vignetting, you can use the "calibrate background filter" in Affintiy. It's part since version 1.9.0.

Cheers,
Björn

Yes exactly that, i recolour each RBG channel then merge a pixel layer then process both LUM and RGB seperate before adding LUM back in with blend mode luminosity.

Do you think that recolouring process is causing the banding? I've not seen it before on my last two LRGB images hence suprised to see it pop up so strongly...
Björn Arnold avatar
It's certainly not an alignment problem. There are a few things to consider:
1. If you use a recolor adjustment, you'd be surprised that red isn't red: Take a look at the layers for the different colors and look at the color channels. You'll see that the recolored red channel may still have some signal in the green and blue channel. It's how Affinity computes colors. Typical color combination processes assign the intensity purely to the according channel. Hence I recommend following test: don't use the recolor adjustment but simply delete the content of the blue and green channel of the red filter and for the other filters accordingly. Check if the yellow cast is still there. Don't use the luminance layer yet.
You can compensate this by setting the luminance to 50% in the recolor adjustment. Then all the information of the red filter will go into the red channel. Nevertheless, it's a lot of workarounds.

2. The luminance layer, actually the luminance blend mode, is luma and not luminance. It's weighted adjustment of the color channels. There is a thread in the Affinity forum regarding this. This is a very technical aspect: https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/44069-luminosity-blend-mode-help/
This may introduce also a subtle color cast.

For these reasons, I turned away from Affinity to combine mono images and use dedicated software (AstroPixelProcessor) in my case. I use Affinity only with the color combined and already stretched image for minor contrast or brightness adjustments and annotations.

I hope I could explain this well. Please ask if something isn't clear.

Björn
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Michael Bate avatar
Thanks for the advice Björn, really helpful to have some steer. I'll reprocess the RGB channels tonight using the above methods and see how it turns out.

Will report back!
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Michael Bate avatar
I tried reprocessing the RGB differently avoiding recolour filters, instead extracting the individual channels of each RGB image as spare channels then assigning those spare channels to a new RGB pixel layer. Unfortunately same result with no improvement so must be the data somehow.

I'm going to notch this one down as a loss but will still post the image as broadly i'm happy with it albeit with the background banding, I'll keep an eye out if it appears again in future images to try and understand its cause. One to look back on in the future to know i've improved (hopefully!)

thanks for the help.
Michael
Björn Arnold avatar
Hi Michael,

What happens if you don't include the luminance layer but only the RGB. Is the yellow cast still there?

Cheers,
Björn
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Michael Bate avatar
Hi Björn - yes it's only visible in the combined RGB image, the luminance layer quality is much better with no gradients at all.

I stretch the RGB image and the blue/yellow gradient appears then it only goes into a banding artefact once I create a synthetic flat frame to remove the gradient and subtract it from the RGB image. I'm thinking it's got to be something to do with that synethic flat and extracing it that is causing the banding. I do have to swap between 16 bit and 32 bit colour spaces to do it, maybe that is having an adverse impact?

FYI here's the final image i ended up with in case you're interested to see it > https://www.astrobin.com/3l383d/0/
Björn Arnold avatar
Maybe: Don‘t subtract the artificial flat. I’d bet you are subtracting blue to zero (or at least too much) and hence get the yellow.
Either use a pixel or filling layer and blend it with the soft light (I hope that‘s the right term) blend mode.
or 
use the background removal filter in the Astrophotography section of the filter menu. The latter should do the best job in this case.
Try to stay in 32bit HDR in Affinity. All adjustments and tools are functional when working with 32bit. Up to version 1.9.2 there is a bug in the HSL adjustment, where the color picker isn’t working. Haven’t checked if it is fixed with 1.9.3.
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Michael Bate avatar
Sound guidance again thank you, I'll try without subtracting the synthetic flat and see how it comes out. I've tried the background extraction tool but i feel it's quite over powering, maybe i just need to play about with the settings. 

The only filters that arent available in 32bit is median blur and/or dust and scratches which is needed for the synthetic flat frame BUT if i dont use one, no need to come out of 32 bit.
Björn Arnold avatar
Hi Michael,

I've used filling layers to compensate for gradients and vignetting (the vignetting removal was never satisfactory as it seems to handle only idealized vignetting shapes). However, that worked to some extend well when I shot with the DSLR. Somehow the DSLR chip managed to remain extremely clean through it's cleaning function (I've never seen and dust spots on it). With the dedicated camera, I'm always taking Flats. In the beginning I though "another work item for the night 😒" but it turns out that one can take these very easily and quickly within 5 or 10 minutes.

The background normalization/leveling tool in Affinity works quite well. You have to place the probes and check the color picking function in the dialog. Maybe it's necessary to change the radius a bit if the background contains a lot of color noise. Also lift the set point of the black point. Usually it's set to zero but this give's an unnatural background and also it effectively clips the data. You may need to increase it to get a light dark background. With 32bit it's less of an issue as you just need to make a curve adjustment to bring the (now leveled) background to an intensity that looks more natural and pleasing.

Björn
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Michael Bate avatar
I always shoot flats and dark flats after each imaging run because i have a mobile setup so the orientation and focus is always slightly different (no matter how hard i try to keep it the same).

When you refer to filling layers, what exactly do you mean? I've not heard of that before but keen to learn. 

Thanks
Michael
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Björn Arnold avatar
Ah ok. When you said synthetic flat, I assumed you try to mimic a flat by yourself. So what you are talking about is gradient removal. i just want to avoid to get confused with terminology. 

To explain filling layers, I think it's easiest to link to the manual: https://affinity.help/photo/English.lproj/pages/Layers/layerFill.html (EDIT: wrong link in initial post)
With that you can easily create and later modify a gradient (e.g., linear or elliptical) and blend this through the different blend modes.

Let me know how it goes!

Björn
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Michael Bate avatar
Ah yes just a terminology thing i think, i essentially creatr a starless gradient layer to remove a background gradient in any image.

Filling later looks promising, i assume you create a gradient that matches the gradient on the image in terms of position/direction/colour then blend into the image to "paint over" the gradient? How do you do blend it considering there are stars in your working layer but won't be in the filler layer?

Thanks!
Björn Arnold avatar
@Michael Bate, would you mind if I download your M51 and send you and Affinity file where I illustrate the process? I think that's much easier.

Regarding the stars:
The stars will be affected of course. However, you could select the lights and mask them or select the background as a positive mask. However, I'd say that the gradient is also in the stars as their light has to pass through the "illuminated" atmosphere.

Björn
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Michael Bate avatar
Hi Björn

No I wouldn't mind at all. I'd actually really appreciate you taking the time to help me out on this, very kind.

Thanks
Michael
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