ZWO is shifting more and more developer power to the seestar. The Asiair Plus no longer even supports all of Zwo's cameras. there is a beta version, but this beta version has been in existence since the beginning of November 2023. there are a few intermediate steps. that was it. A 715 from Zwo has been lying here for a few weeks. I only get it connected to my Asiair Plus when I load the beta version. I don't want that. I would like to connect my zwo camera to my zwo computer with official zwo software release. three months of beta version are enough.In the meantime I started working with a mini-PC and Nina. Maybe I'll be able to get my asi715cm up and running faster with real software and not with a test flight.If the mini-PC is running, next time it may not have to be a camera from Zwo. or filter wheel. or EAF…Once upon a time, Asiair used to be 1-2-3. Now it is beta and in slow motion. Zwo is certainly making so much money with his astro toy, that it no longer needs the customers of Asiair and the big cameras.
Let ZWO ASIAIR die?
Have you tried posting over on the ZWO forums?
[pre]Yes I have. And ZWO always writes very friendly. They also admit that the Seestar project diverted energy from the other construction sites. what the friendly ZWO doesn't say, when will the official update be released.
The problem isn't even the sea star. The question is, what is the next big thing at Zwo? and how much manpower will be deducted from asiair?[/pre]
The problem isn't even the sea star. The question is, what is the next big thing at Zwo? and how much manpower will be deducted from asiair?[/pre]
A new beta version was released recently and it seems to say that the ASI715 is now supported. Worth checking. https://bbs.zwoastro.com
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Gary Crawford:
I think you vented too soon. Check on the ZWO forum. A new beta version was released yesterday and it seems to say that the ASI715 is now supported. https://bbs.zwoastro.com
The ASI715MC has been supported by the beta version since last year. That wasn't my topic. I don't want to be a beta tester. I don't want to play a beta version on my Asiair. It may support the 715, but it is full of bugs. check the ZWO Forum for this beta. Many things work worse with this beta than with the last official update. After three month it’s time for the real thing.
To break free from the locked-in ZWO universe, and to experience continuous software updates with many cool features and plugins, I can highly recommend N.I.N.A (running on a mini-pc). There's a very active community developing for the platform and they quickly adapt to new hardware being launched from more or less any vendor. Extra bonus: you can control everything from your PC/Mac with a nice big screen - as opposed to only being able to use a tablet/phone.
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Bastiaan Feenstra:
To break free from the locked-in ZWO universe, and to experience continuous software updates with many cool features and plugins, I can highly recommend N.I.N.A (running on a mini-pc). There's a very active community developing for the platform and they quickly adapt to new hardware being launched from more or less any vendor. Extra bonus: you can control everything from your PC/Mac with a nice big screen - as opposed to only being able to use a tablet/phone.
N.II.N.A. is not quite so easy for Mac Users , I think. https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/872782-nina-and-m1-macs-a-brief-guide/
The reason I got into the ZWOverse, was the easy integration to my Mac. Have tried going through the hoops to get NINA working via Parallels, but gave up in the end. Just not that PC-savvy, I guess.
No doubt the development of seestar has led to some re-prioritisation of effort at ZWO, but given their market of high-end AP gear [including the new AM3/AM5 mounts - which no doubt also took devlopment resources ] , I am hopeful that they won't desert us.
In fairness to ZWO, the AIR is cheap. Granted, their own cameras sholud be instantly supported - i agree. But it's really intended as a BASIC portable rig. It's great for that purpose, and it's amazing that it includes power distribution on top of basic USB connectivity and dedicated software in such a small package. I tried to re-create it with a raspberry-pi and various "hats" at one point, but the result wasn't very good.
When you get into more advanced setups, it makes more sense to have a mini-pc. I loved using the AIR until i got to a point where i wanted to stretch a bit. I then moved to a NUC and then later to an Eagle with NINA. I still have the ASIAIR for a more basic, grab-and-go system.
When you get into more advanced setups, it makes more sense to have a mini-pc. I loved using the AIR until i got to a point where i wanted to stretch a bit. I then moved to a NUC and then later to an Eagle with NINA. I still have the ASIAIR for a more basic, grab-and-go system.
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Interesting. 23% of mobile users use iPhones. 29% of desktop/laptop users are using Macs. Apple is the single largest manufacturer of such devices in the world. The devices are dominant on college campuses, in education, graphic design, fine arts, animation houses, recording studios, and freelance filmmaking/television.
It does seem incongruous that developers can’t fathom supporting the platform. That’s a lot of missing customers.
With that in mind, it’s nice that Zwo decided to exploit the potential, as well as being among the first to develop such a functional family of products.
It does seem incongruous that developers can’t fathom supporting the platform. That’s a lot of missing customers.
With that in mind, it’s nice that Zwo decided to exploit the potential, as well as being among the first to develop such a functional family of products.
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This is common (or at least in tech). Companies gain dominance, then pivot/diversify to something new (because growth aka "line must go up") and the core market languishes. Similar examples are all around: Microsoft with Windows and Office (compare Win8 -> 10 -> 11 with NT4.0 -> 2k -> XP), Google Search has been getting less useful by the day, Amazon (AWS) and yes Apple has been neglecting the Mac (both hardware and software-wise) in favor of iOS devices.
This is just one of the dangers of vendor lock-in, once they have you and you can't get out all there is to it is to grin and bear it.
This is just one of the dangers of vendor lock-in, once they have you and you can't get out all there is to it is to grin and bear it.
I try to not be so skeptical. Vendor lock-in can certainly trap folks sometimes. But that can’t be an exclusive reason for avoiding some products.
Both ZWO and Apple look to provide consistent experience by limiting the noise factor and bloated expense that comes with trying to insure functionality with every variation of hardware and OS out there.
I wonder how many people were introduced into this hobby because of these companies’ efforts. ZWO is all many folks will need and serves as an excellent gateway to more complex choices for those who want to pursue it. That has to be good news for the hobby.
Both ZWO and Apple look to provide consistent experience by limiting the noise factor and bloated expense that comes with trying to insure functionality with every variation of hardware and OS out there.
I wonder how many people were introduced into this hobby because of these companies’ efforts. ZWO is all many folks will need and serves as an excellent gateway to more complex choices for those who want to pursue it. That has to be good news for the hobby.
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Before I got into this hobby, when I was researching the astrophotography equipment, ASCOM seemed a little intimidating to me, and I am a Mac user, so it was a little frustrating. Then the first generation ASIAIR came out, I decided to jump in. The experience had been great. After a few years, I was looking to upgrade because the first gen ASIAIR is limited. Then I heard about NINA and it looked great. So I just bought a mini pc and installed NINA,. I use remote desktop on my Mac to control the mini pc. I download the data to my Mac to process with PixInsight.
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Like several users in this thread, I started off with an ASIAir and found it very easy to use.
That is its main selling point - you plug in your ZWO devices and it just works.
However, it wasn't long before I became frustrated with its limitations, the lack of any meaningful technical support, and ZWO's massively irritating processes for implementing firmware updates.
So, I switched to a Primalucelab Eagle controller and NINA, and have never looked back.
NINA is fantastic :-
- it supports a broad diversity of brands and devices, it is ASCOM friendly, and it is FREE.
- it is just as easy to use as the ASIAir, but much more powerful and even more intuitive.
- it supports 3rd party plugins such as 3-point polar alignment, artificial horizon creator and many others.
- it has worked 100% seamlessly with all my ZWO devices.
- it has a very active user community via the NINA Discord site.
- developers actively engage with users and attend to bugs/problems/feature requests very quickly.
My advice for anyone thinking about getting into this hobby seriously - a mini PC and NINA offers much more versatility and room for growth than is available with the ASIAir.
Cheers,
Gary
That is its main selling point - you plug in your ZWO devices and it just works.
However, it wasn't long before I became frustrated with its limitations, the lack of any meaningful technical support, and ZWO's massively irritating processes for implementing firmware updates.
So, I switched to a Primalucelab Eagle controller and NINA, and have never looked back.
NINA is fantastic :-
- it supports a broad diversity of brands and devices, it is ASCOM friendly, and it is FREE.
- it is just as easy to use as the ASIAir, but much more powerful and even more intuitive.
- it supports 3rd party plugins such as 3-point polar alignment, artificial horizon creator and many others.
- it has worked 100% seamlessly with all my ZWO devices.
- it has a very active user community via the NINA Discord site.
- developers actively engage with users and attend to bugs/problems/feature requests very quickly.
My advice for anyone thinking about getting into this hobby seriously - a mini PC and NINA offers much more versatility and room for growth than is available with the ASIAir.
Cheers,
Gary
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seestar is a just an electronic junk toy
I’m a Mac user and when I first got into the hobby I tried NINA a couple of times before I discovered the AIR.
Truth be told I would have given up long ago without the AIR. I don’t know what I’m missing necessarily with NINA but I’m thinking it may be time. That being said I don’t want to have to program or download multiple apps (haven’t used a windows product in decades) . Some of the new minis (Pegasus,etc.) have me intrigued
Truth be told I would have given up long ago without the AIR. I don’t know what I’m missing necessarily with NINA but I’m thinking it may be time. That being said I don’t want to have to program or download multiple apps (haven’t used a windows product in decades) . Some of the new minis (Pegasus,etc.) have me intrigued
I loved my ASIAIR. It's really great for beginners and for people who want something small that they can grab and go with. I am glad I switched to a mini PC and NINA though. Every night this week that's been forecast as clear all night hasn't been. Had I of been using my ASIAIR I would have done an autorun sequence where it would take 20 of R, 20 G, 20 B, etc. By the time it got past the red filter it would have been cloudy and I wouldn't even have a chance at making an image.
With NINA, I have my sequence all made out. It starts at dark and goes until the object is below the horizon or dawn, whichever comes first. Besides that, I'm taking 6 lum, 3 R, 3 G, 3B and it will just keep doing that on repeat. It took me all of about 5 or 10 minutes to create the sequence to do that. Now if clouds come in, at least I have data from each filter. Then it's using filter offsets to focus, so it doesn't take 5 minutes between each filter change, which means more images at the end of the night.
Sure, I could program the autorun on an ASIAIR to do the same thing, but it would take forever. I'm not even sure it wouldn't crash if I tried to program it in. For the 5 filters I'm using tonight to get the same result rotating through the filters the way I am, I would have to enter in each filter like 14 times. I'm not sure that the interface would hold up to that, but with NINA it works like nothing.
With NINA, I have my sequence all made out. It starts at dark and goes until the object is below the horizon or dawn, whichever comes first. Besides that, I'm taking 6 lum, 3 R, 3 G, 3B and it will just keep doing that on repeat. It took me all of about 5 or 10 minutes to create the sequence to do that. Now if clouds come in, at least I have data from each filter. Then it's using filter offsets to focus, so it doesn't take 5 minutes between each filter change, which means more images at the end of the night.
Sure, I could program the autorun on an ASIAIR to do the same thing, but it would take forever. I'm not even sure it wouldn't crash if I tried to program it in. For the 5 filters I'm using tonight to get the same result rotating through the filters the way I am, I would have to enter in each filter like 14 times. I'm not sure that the interface would hold up to that, but with NINA it works like nothing.
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I have been quite a strong supporter of ZWO since I got into this hobby about five years ago. I have 5 telescopes, all have same ZWO EAF focusers (excellent), and then two fully interchangeable imaging trains - one with ASI6200MM the other with ASI6200MC both with 7 position EFW filter wheels and OAG-L off-axis guiders plus 2 x ASI720MM guide cameras, and then of course 2 x ASI AIRPlus controllers. One of my two mounts is the excellent AM5. It has all worked very well, and with ZWO I would have struggled to get going in astro-photography. Until recently ASI AIRPlu was my only controller that I chose to use.
ZWO hardware is also of very good quality, although documentation is very lacking in some areas.
However…., I also see 'cracks' opening in ZWO as a one-stop-shop for a well integrated and supported eco-system. I gave up a long time ago on their Mac based ASI Studio apps which are very poor with no support for AF, plate-solve etc. Their on-line support provides pat answers to serious requests but no real solutions, and really relies on their customers to provide any decent technical support. The ASIAIR has been a very well thought out capable controller that gets you up and imaging VERY quickly - no hours of debug between incompatible hardware or apps! However, despite supporting with lots of very good upgrades, the documentation is now a 'treasure hunt' to find out all the changes. Documentation. is effectively non-existent. Now those updates seem to have ground to a halt.
Meanwhile my skills have improved thanks in part to ZWO and, to a larger part the very vibrant community of YouTube channels with excellent tutorials. Now I see ZWO controllers as really the one limiting factor holding me back. I have a Primalucelab Eagle controller which with N.I.N.A. running now takes the brakes off and allows me to get to another level. In between, new products such as Stellarmate Pro seem to be a good intermediate step for those on a smaller budget. Both of these solutions offer good solutions to ZWOs lack of support for non-ZWO hardware. Plus of course there are many others….
In short, ZWO - I am grateful for them providing some excellent hardware and a great pathway for beginners like me to get into this hobby. I hope that ZWO doesn't forget to take a longer term view to support their existing customers. At least now I have more options.
BTW - I am also a big Apple fan since about mid-80's. That is one company that constantly builds on its eco-system, albeit at a cost with all hardware running out of support in about 7 years (now 5 years on some products). All these companies need to make money to support an ever increasingly expensive R&D budget so I guess ZWO is in the same boat.
ZWO hardware is also of very good quality, although documentation is very lacking in some areas.
However…., I also see 'cracks' opening in ZWO as a one-stop-shop for a well integrated and supported eco-system. I gave up a long time ago on their Mac based ASI Studio apps which are very poor with no support for AF, plate-solve etc. Their on-line support provides pat answers to serious requests but no real solutions, and really relies on their customers to provide any decent technical support. The ASIAIR has been a very well thought out capable controller that gets you up and imaging VERY quickly - no hours of debug between incompatible hardware or apps! However, despite supporting with lots of very good upgrades, the documentation is now a 'treasure hunt' to find out all the changes. Documentation. is effectively non-existent. Now those updates seem to have ground to a halt.
Meanwhile my skills have improved thanks in part to ZWO and, to a larger part the very vibrant community of YouTube channels with excellent tutorials. Now I see ZWO controllers as really the one limiting factor holding me back. I have a Primalucelab Eagle controller which with N.I.N.A. running now takes the brakes off and allows me to get to another level. In between, new products such as Stellarmate Pro seem to be a good intermediate step for those on a smaller budget. Both of these solutions offer good solutions to ZWOs lack of support for non-ZWO hardware. Plus of course there are many others….
In short, ZWO - I am grateful for them providing some excellent hardware and a great pathway for beginners like me to get into this hobby. I hope that ZWO doesn't forget to take a longer term view to support their existing customers. At least now I have more options.
BTW - I am also a big Apple fan since about mid-80's. That is one company that constantly builds on its eco-system, albeit at a cost with all hardware running out of support in about 7 years (now 5 years on some products). All these companies need to make money to support an ever increasingly expensive R&D budget so I guess ZWO is in the same boat.
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It is the time to let zwo go.
Like Stephen, I'm a Mac user and have been for decades.
When I began astrophotography, I spent weeks evaluating astronomy apps for Mac. I finally realised that there were just no good astronomy controller apps for the Mac platform. I also discovered that trying to run windows-based astronomy apps like NINA under a virtual machine on a M-series Mac just doesn't work, mainly because the ZWO drivers do not work on Apple Silicon, and ZWO tech support offered no solution for this problem.
The ASIAir was a great little controller and got me hooked on astrophotography, to the point where I wanted to do things outside the scope of the ASIAir's capability - like generating sequences on my desktop, creating custom filter sequences, and customising file names.
So I invested in a Primalucelab Eagle to run NINA as a dedicated controller system, and that works very well.
So - back to Robert's original question - Let ASIAir die ?
IMHO - yes.
If you want to advance your astrophotography beyond the level for which ASIAir was designed, then my advice is to invest in a dedicated mini-PC and run NINA.
The Primalucelab Eagle is highly over-rated in my opinion - they are over-priced and PLL's technical support has been somewhat lacking - I would not buy one again. IMHO an inexpensive mini-PC + a separate power controller (eg Pegasus PowerBox) is a much better and more flexible solution.
Cheers,
Gary
When I began astrophotography, I spent weeks evaluating astronomy apps for Mac. I finally realised that there were just no good astronomy controller apps for the Mac platform. I also discovered that trying to run windows-based astronomy apps like NINA under a virtual machine on a M-series Mac just doesn't work, mainly because the ZWO drivers do not work on Apple Silicon, and ZWO tech support offered no solution for this problem.
The ASIAir was a great little controller and got me hooked on astrophotography, to the point where I wanted to do things outside the scope of the ASIAir's capability - like generating sequences on my desktop, creating custom filter sequences, and customising file names.
So I invested in a Primalucelab Eagle to run NINA as a dedicated controller system, and that works very well.
So - back to Robert's original question - Let ASIAir die ?
IMHO - yes.
If you want to advance your astrophotography beyond the level for which ASIAir was designed, then my advice is to invest in a dedicated mini-PC and run NINA.
The Primalucelab Eagle is highly over-rated in my opinion - they are over-priced and PLL's technical support has been somewhat lacking - I would not buy one again. IMHO an inexpensive mini-PC + a separate power controller (eg Pegasus PowerBox) is a much better and more flexible solution.
Cheers,
Gary
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I would leave the hobby if ZWO abandoned ASIair. My WO GT71 travel rig weighs 20 pounds total (plus big battery) and I run it from a pad or phone in my car. No cables. No PC’s. Excellent performance. Nice images. There are few equivalents that are as lightweight and trouble free.
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I am a bit perplexed by the view expressed that "you need to junk ZWO/get N.I.N.A. if you want to be a serious astrophotographer"
For me, ZWO/ASIAir gives me everything I need in respect of planning and executing observing sessions. While I don't necessarily consider myself a serious astrophtographer (although FWIW I have a reasonably healthy AB index) I would have to say that ZWO ASIAir gives me every functionality (and more) that I would have used as a professional astronomer over 30 years using a variety of astronomical imaging planning and acquisition platforms.
What am I missing by not using N.I.N.A.? This is a genuine question… I really would love to know.
CS Brian
For me, ZWO/ASIAir gives me everything I need in respect of planning and executing observing sessions. While I don't necessarily consider myself a serious astrophtographer (although FWIW I have a reasonably healthy AB index) I would have to say that ZWO ASIAir gives me every functionality (and more) that I would have used as a professional astronomer over 30 years using a variety of astronomical imaging planning and acquisition platforms.
What am I missing by not using N.I.N.A.? This is a genuine question… I really would love to know.
CS Brian
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Brian Boyle:
I am a bit perplexed by the view expressed that "you need to junk ZWO/get N.I.N.A. if you want to be a serious astrophotographer"
For me, ZWO/ASIAir gives me everything I need in respect of planning and executing observing sessions. While I don't necessarily consider myself a serious astrophtographer (although FWIW I have a reasonably healthy AB index) I would have to say that ZWO ASIAir gives me every functionality (and more) that I would have used as a professional astronomer over 30 years using a variety of astronomical imaging planning and acquisition platforms.
What am I missing by not using N.I.N.A.? This is a genuine question... I really would love to know.
CS Brian
I have exactly the same feelings. For most backyard imagers who already have everything they need from the ASIair, jumping to NINA is not going to suddenly make your acquisition sessions substantially any better.
The only three things I wish I had from NINA are:
- Advanced sequencer that can be set to my backyard custom horizon where you can set certain parameters as to when to start and stop a sequence for a target and move to the next target based on their altitude in the sky rather than just a dumb sequence of events like the planner in the ASIair.
- Filter offsets for reducing time for repeated AF sequences.
- Advanced autofocus routines that can do multistar focus, assist in correcting tilt and backfocus, etc.
But the one thing I will miss from the ASIair is a functional mobile app that works from my phone with direct control from the native app without having to remote into a desktop on your mini-pc.
That's it really.
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I have tested different systems in the last year: external computer, stellarmate with Raspberry Pi4 (a lot of issues but it was the beginning of this solution), a mini-computer (MELE Q3) and Asiair …
Due to all this experimentations, I have a special setup:
- I have two pegasus box: a power advance & a USB hub.
- The power box manages all the power of all the equipments. One wire go down towards the 12V battery.
- All the USB devices (camera, EAF, filter wheel …) are connected to the Pegasus USB hub
On my setup, I have two controller: the Asiair plus & the mini-PC computer MELE Q3
the two controllers are wifi compatible, I could manage them with a Tablet (Asiair) or an external computer in the home (no wires: MELE Q3 or Asiair)
the advantage of the USB hub Pegasus: the output could be connected to the Asiair or to the MELE-Q3
So with one wire, I have two solutions.
the Pegasus power Box USB output is connected to the Mele Q3 in order to use the Pegasus soft to check the heat resistances.
I also use the connection to the MELE Q3 for:
- check the collimation with CCDinspector
- verify the tilt with Astap
- Do live stacking with Sharpcap
- Check the Backfocus with NINA
For the DSO plan, I find Asiair more easy to use than NINA. But it is a personal point of view.
For me Asiair is the most powerful tool (like Apple ones), simple to use. The Primalucelab are too expensive. I agree with the fact that mini-PC + Pegasus box is more flexible. For me the Asiair is not dead, the seestar could not be a goal … the Asiair is the key to sell all their products in one solution. Thanks to the Asiair, they could sell: camera, eaf, wheel, AM mount … I am sure that they will pursue its developpment.
Due to all this experimentations, I have a special setup:
- I have two pegasus box: a power advance & a USB hub.
- The power box manages all the power of all the equipments. One wire go down towards the 12V battery.
- All the USB devices (camera, EAF, filter wheel …) are connected to the Pegasus USB hub
On my setup, I have two controller: the Asiair plus & the mini-PC computer MELE Q3
the two controllers are wifi compatible, I could manage them with a Tablet (Asiair) or an external computer in the home (no wires: MELE Q3 or Asiair)
the advantage of the USB hub Pegasus: the output could be connected to the Asiair or to the MELE-Q3
So with one wire, I have two solutions.
the Pegasus power Box USB output is connected to the Mele Q3 in order to use the Pegasus soft to check the heat resistances.
I also use the connection to the MELE Q3 for:
- check the collimation with CCDinspector
- verify the tilt with Astap
- Do live stacking with Sharpcap
- Check the Backfocus with NINA
For the DSO plan, I find Asiair more easy to use than NINA. But it is a personal point of view.
For me Asiair is the most powerful tool (like Apple ones), simple to use. The Primalucelab are too expensive. I agree with the fact that mini-PC + Pegasus box is more flexible. For me the Asiair is not dead, the seestar could not be a goal … the Asiair is the key to sell all their products in one solution. Thanks to the Asiair, they could sell: camera, eaf, wheel, AM mount … I am sure that they will pursue its developpment.
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Gary JONES:
So I invested in a Primalucelab Eagle to run NINA as a dedicated controller system, and that works very well.
That's the way to go. I never went the ZWO line, first I had a Windows laptop and thougt about converting one of my Raspberry Pis (nothing else is a ASIAir, which is just some "borrowed" stellarmate stuff) into an AstroPi. But then went for an Eagle 5 pro, which is such a convenient device and a structural part of my rig. NINA is even in beta great.
When imaging in my backyard, I usually go the PC/SGP route. More accessories are supported (flip flat, QSI cameras and the like). I don't have a dome. SGP works fine, I can do whatever I want. However, when I go to star parties, or a local astro site, or do EAA, I use my ASI AIR. The setup is simpler, power requirements are a bit less, and it is fun to walk around with my iPad showing folks imaging. It would be nice if flip flats were supported, but that will not stop me using ASI Air for the foreseeable future.
I really don't think this needs to be an either or situation. PC's and SGP/NINA are great solutions, but the ASI AIR checks quite a few boxes, at least for me.
I really don't think this needs to be an either or situation. PC's and SGP/NINA are great solutions, but the ASI AIR checks quite a few boxes, at least for me.
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