Astronomy question : molecular clouds and IFN

15 replies355 views
Jérémie avatar
I believe there are astronomers and astrophysicians among us astrophotographers and I would like to ask a noob question : what is the difference between an IFN (integrated flux nebula) and molecular clouds ?

Seems that both are made of gas and dusts. So the difference would be how they receive light : molecular clouds from nearby stars (giving nice dark nebulas simetimes) while IFN would be extra-galactic and illuminated by the whole galaxy ?
Respectful Engaging
Salvatore Iovene avatar
Wei-Hao Wang avatar
Molecular clouds are cold (0-50 K) and high density (1,000 to 100,000 molecules per cc).  Except for their own cores that have even higher density, you can consider molecular clouds to be the densest form of interstellar medium in galaxies.  They are where new stars form (at least in our own Milky Way), because only molecular clouds can provide the density required for gravity to pull everything together to form stars.  Most of them are on the Galactic plan. There are some that are off the plane, but not many. In amateur pictures, the very dark nebulas like the Pipe and Bok globules are molecular clouds.

IFN is strictly an amateur term.  We discussed about this on Astrobin some time in the recent past.  I did a search in the professional literature, and hardly fond any usages of the term IFN.  Only amateur astronomers use this term. In professional astronomy, we call them "cirrus."  They are low-density gas floating around in the interstellar space.  Their density is much lower than molecular clouds, and therefore they are much more transparent.  I think their transparency is nothing new to amateur astrophotographers.  They can be found even in high Galactic latitudes.

As for the composition of IFN, to be honest, I am not sure.  They could be molecular (even so, we don't call them molecular clouds because of their low density), or atomic.  I would guess they are mostly atomic hydrogen rather than molecular, simply based on their low density.  It requires some minimum density for molecular clouds to shield itself from the interstellar radiation field, to prevent the molecules to photo-dissociate into atoms. The orangish light we see from them in deep pictures come from light scattered by the dust particle in these clouds.  It's the dust particles, neither the molecular nor the atomic parts of the gas that produces the orange reflection.  Dust particles exist equally in molecular clouds and IFN and other forms of interstellar medium.

I hope this does not further confuse you.
Helpful
Jérémie avatar
Crystal clear @Wei-Hao Wang
Last question : what is the composition of these molecular clouds ? Does it vary a lot ?
I understood that nucleo synthesis was done primary through stars themselves (with temperature decreasing after the big bang, the first atoms to arise were hydrogen, and heavier atoms like helium and so on were produced by stars themselves). So when we say molecular clouds, we talk about heavier stuff, that was generated after very old stars died, correct ? Does it contain carbon, oxygen, iron ? Or is it hydrogen gas ?
Wei-Hao Wang avatar
Yes.  It surely contains those heavier elements.  However, hydrogen and helium are still the primary components in gas clouds, molecular or atomic.  Most of the He come from Big Bang nucleosynthesis, and a small fraction of He comes from stellar nucleosynthesis. Most of the heavier elements like C, O, N, Mg, Fe, etc come from stellar nucleosynthesis.  They only account for a very small fraction of the total mass though.  Most of the mass is in H and He.  The exact mass fraction of heavier elements (called metallicity in astronomy) changes from cloud to cloud, and from nucleus to outer part in a galaxy.  It strongly depends on the star formation history (locally, and the galaxy as a whole), since the heavier elements come from stars.
Well written Helpful Insightful
Jérémie avatar
Thanks for those very clear explanations @Wei-Hao Wang . That’s really fascinating !
Well written
Alberto Ibañez avatar
Thank you @Wei-Hao Wang for sharing this info. I'm curious, as @Jérémie, about the origin, composition... of this objects... but never found a satisfactory source (my fault, for sure)

Can I request you the (or some of) sources to find this kind of information?
Thank you in advance.
Die Launische Diva avatar
Thank you for posting this! I am also curious if there is a difference between IFN and galactic cirri. I would be obliged if anyone could share some trustworthy references. A review paper or even book chapter would be perfect!
Well written Respectful Engaging
Jérémie avatar
Die Launische Diva:
Thank you for posting this! I am also curious if there is a difference between IFN and galactic cirri. I would be obliged if anyone could share some trustworthy references. A review paper or even book chapter would be perfect!

It seems that’s the same thing to quote Wei-Hao : « IFN is strictly an amateur term.  We discussed about this on Astrobin some time in the recent past.  I did a search in the professional literature, and hardly fond any usages of the term IFN.  Only amateur astronomers use this term. In professional astronomy, we call them "cirrus." »

From now on I will avoid this term :-)
Helpful Concise
Die Launische Diva avatar
Thank you Jérémie! Somehow I managed to miss Wei-Hao's comment. Some time in the past, I did my own research and reached at the same result. Now I know smile
Wei-Hao Wang avatar
Hi,

I don’t think we should stop using the term IFN. The key is effective communication. As long as amateur astronomers know what each other is talking about, it’s fine. I mentioned about IFN vs cirrus just to remind people that you may not get many returns from your search in professional literature if you use IFN. You can get much more hits if you use cirrus as the keyword instead.

I am not too familiar with modern textbooks as I don’t teach as much as normal university professors. The books I read when I was a student didn’t talk much about molecular clouds. They focused more on ionized gas instead. A good starting point could be the book “An Introduction to Modern Astrophysics” by Carroll and Ostlie. This is a college level textbook on astrophysics and it has a chapter on interstellar medium. If you use the keyword “interstellar medium” to search on Amazon, you can find several other books on this topic. Many of them can be quite involved though.

I know there are other astronomers on Astrobin. Maybe they have better recommendations on textbooks about interstellar medium.
Helpful
andrea tasselli avatar
Weird. I always thought of it as "cirrus" in well over a quarter of century of dabbling in astronomy. I always thought IFN being some technical terms when it is quite the opposite.
matthew.maclean avatar
Wei-Hao Wang:
A good starting point could be the book “An Introduction to Modern Astrophysics” by Carroll and Ostlie


I’ll second the Carroll and Ostlie book. I’m about half-way through it, and read through a chapter whenever I get a free day (hoping to start the supernova chapter this weekend). As an engineer, it’s an incredible source of information for those like me who have a college level math background and want to pick up the astrophysics concepts.
Well written Concise
Alan Brunelle avatar
I think IFN use for astrophotography seems the best choice.  It is a description of what makes it visible to our cameras, even professional's cameras.  The collective light from the bulk galactic starfield makes it so.  While cirrus may be what astronomers use, the origins of that word come from meteorologists term for high thin weather clouds in our atmosphere.  It therefore is used through a logical borrow.    My guess is that cirrus has been around longer since the pros have been able to see IFN with their large telescopes and superior cameras and locations.  But just because cirrus may have been the first (though logical name given at the time) doesn't mean it is better or more "professional".  As a scientist (in a different field) I have seen many naming conventions come about simply because one person, often the first person to see a phenomenon, comes up with a name at a meeting or first publication that sticks.  In fact, I have seen IFN used in more recent professional astronomical publications, and I would not be surprised that it overtakes cirrus.  IFN is catchy, it is more accurately descriptive of the clouds location (after all, the dust clouds must be removed from the galaxy center if it is to be reflecting collective light from the galaxy) and the mechanism that allows it to be seen and is unbiased as to cloud density or morphology.  In fact I have seen images on Astrobin and elsewhere that show a close association of IFN that contains some areas of reflection nebula and/or even some quite dense regions.

@Wei-Hao Wang is correct that the vast majority of the materials in molecular clouds is hydrogen, followed by helium, etc (the primordial gases).  But the optical densities of molecular clouds mean that they must contain larger particles than just atoms or diatomic or other simple molecules, because these are transparent to visible light.  Also, if the clouds were to consist of only H and He, they would not be able to achieve the extremely cold temperatures required for the condensation into stars.  So there are higher order molecules, such as organic (carbon rich), (even buckminsterfullerine, quite large and clumps together readily into soot!), some of which are large enough to condense into actual physical particles, like soot that can absorb and reflect visible light.  These clouds also must have all the materials that go into the construction of planets, including water, silicon, and the lighter metals up to iron.  And most rarely, materials heavier than iron.  IFN must have some actual physical particles.  It is only particles and larger molecules that can reflect, absorb and re-emit the galaxy light.  If it was only gas, the light that we record would just pass right through.  Since molecular clouds have atoms heavier that lithium, and particles and agglomerates of the heavier materials, the only way this material could have arisen is from supernovae and as we learned in the last couple years, the merger of neutron stars (which is now thought likely to be the only way elements heavier that iron can be wrought!).

The current theories of nucleosynthesis becomes a real challenge to theoreticians, because at the earliest age of the universe, just as stars were thought to be lighting up, we know that only H, He and Li were present.  So therefore, "all" of the dust that exists in all galaxies must be the result of the gradual collection of star death debris over 14 billion years.  The impact that has on star formation is critical.  The first stars must have formed through very different mechanisms, because there were no molecular clouds at the beginning and currently we really only see new stars being formed in molecular clouds.  Molecular clouds only work because they can become much colder than the non-cloud expanses of interstellar or intergalactic space.  Just clouds of H and He cannot now form stars.  They stay much too hot and the atoms cannot condense.  Dust gets cold, because when dust particles collide, the particles lose kinetic energy, often by emitting long wavelength light such as long wave IR and get colder.  Often very close to absolute zero.  You might ask, would the IR not just be reabsorbed by the dust grains?  Fact is IR passes through dust and escapes the clouds, that is why astronomers can use IR, microwaves and radio waves to penetrate clouds to see things deep within.  And the dust cloud particles block the shorter wavelength light, which defends the cloud against energy penetrating deep within, where it gets coldest.  So currently, it is the dust that drives the formation of stars, even though H is the more abundant.  Really, H and He just go along for the ride.  So the question is, how did the first stars ever form?  Multiple theories on that!  And they are changing.  Interesting to read, and the mechanism for that was unique to the epoch and conditions back then.  And the stars were much much bigger.
Gary Imm avatar
Wow, what an excellent thread.  I have always been confused about this subject.  Now somewhat less so.  Thanks especially to Jérémie, Wei-Hao, and Alan.
Well written Respectful
Tim Hutchison avatar
Thank you @Wei-Hao Wang and ​​​​@Alan Brunelle ! I appreciate you both taking the time to provide this information. And thank you @Jérémie for starting this thread.
Well written Respectful
Related discussions
New group
Facsinated by dark nebulae so thought a group would be appropriate.
Discusses molecular clouds and IFN, directly related to dark nebulae astronomy.
Oct 16, 2019