German Eq mounts Vs the harmonic drives - Forums

Topic starter

May 13, 2023

Hello

So I've noticed an increasing number of eq6r pro mounts up for sale. I was wondering how many of you are considering selling your German Eq mounts to "upgrade" to an AM3 /5?

Seems that the s/h values are now suffering and it's proving difficult to sell where as a few months ago they seemed to be snapped up within a few hours or days of placing the advert.

I'm currently using an eq6r pro and have no plans on replacing it.

Do you think this marks the end of the German Eq mounts??

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andrea tasselli

Frequent contributor

May 13, 2023

Alan Hancox:
Do you think this marks the end of the German Eq mounts??

Dieter Wiedenhofer

May 13, 2023

yes

Markus R.

May 13, 2023

Hey. Good question.
I probably have no real answer for you. I sold my HEQ5 for an iOptron HAE29 and I'm pretty pleased with it. The reason I made the switch was portability and ease of setting it up. I live in a city and have no car only a motorbike. Every cm and kg I could shave off my setup made it easier to get out of the city. So it was a easy decision to switch to a harmonic drive while keeping the carrying capacity.

I guess a lot of people live in cities and they maybe have similar problems.
When you have a backyard and are stationary a german eq mount might still be the better choice. They are less expensive for what you get and I'm a bit concerned about the long time reliability of harmonic drives because of the way they work.

But if you have to move your setup a lot and take it out to a dark site having a light and compact mount is a blessing. This might be the reason why a lot of people are changing. Also its a somewhat high end novalty, strongly marketed too. People are always drawn to things like that, i guess.

Clear Skies!

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Dale Penkala

May 13, 2023

I don't know much about these newer drives, but I'll stay with my AP1200 mount. I love the mount, and even my OnStep converted CGE Pro mount is excellent.

Dale

Ed Dixon

May 13, 2023 · Edited: May 13, 2023

Go to any astro club meeting and notice the number there with gray or white hair. As our years get greater, moving heavy gear, even 30 feet, becomes more or a real issue.

I sold my AVX mount last year due to the weight and back problems it caused every single time I moved it. I got a HEM27 to replace it. The AVX was 47 lb and the HEM27 is 13.

As more of us get older, I think this trend may continue.

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Skender Kajoshaj

May 13, 2023

Ed Dixon:
Go to any astro club meeting and notice the number there with gray or white hair. As our years get greater, moving heavy gear, even 30 feet, becomes more or a real issue.

I sold my AVX mount last year due to the weight and back problems it caused every single time I moved it. I got a HEM27 to replace it. The AVX was 47 lb and the HEM27 is 13.

As more of us get older, I think this trend may continue.

I have spinal problems for years now. But even without that, I never planned on carrying the gear, setting up and then back again every night ... this is why I set up my observatory.
BTW; the harmonic drive mounts are ALSO german eq mounts

I have a friction drive mount, and another eq-6 r pro -- the friction mount is in one observatory with a refractor, and the eq-6 I am setting up in the other observatory, next to the first one, and will have an sct on it- Next to them is a big Dobsonian, which is used for oberving (it was a present from me to my daughter).

Now, I understand the whole new range of the harmonic drive mounts is geared towards portability and they all seem to be trying to beat one another on who will make a smaller harmonic drive mount . .... It is strange, why are they not making LARGER harmonic drive mounts -- I mean, those would be perfect for observatories.

Ed Dixon

May 13, 2023

Skender Kajoshaj:
Ed Dixon:
Go to any astro club meeting and notice the number there with gray or white hair. As our years get greater, moving heavy gear, even 30 feet, becomes more or a real issue.

I sold my AVX mount last year due to the weight and back problems it caused every single time I moved it. I got a HEM27 to replace it. The AVX was 47 lb and the HEM27 is 13.

As more of us get older, I think this trend may continue.

It is strange, why are they not making LARGER harmonic drive mounts -- I mean, those would be perfect for observatories.

iOptron is building those. The HEM44 is one newer one. I think they have more in mind.

Ben

May 13, 2023

For some users like myself, with <1000mm focal length on itinerant setup and very limited imaging nights available, any time gained assembling everything, balancing, PA, calibrating the autoguide, troubleshooting, etc … and remembering 6 months later (or more …) how to do it all, is highly valuable no matter the type of eq mount.

I won't list the pros and cons of my old NEQ6 Pro vs. brand new ZWO AM5 for my specific usage, but let's just say that if the AM5 were to be a german eq mount I would not benefit from quite a few "comforts" making the whole setup a breeze. It's as close to "plug and play" as can be for me, with no real need for tweaking things once home, adding accessories or "gizmos" to get better balancing, running more than one app on my tablet to control it all, finding you can't connect/disconnect this or that without problems, etc …

So, being harmonic drive has its advantages, but at this stage of my life and fitness it's only part of the motivation for switching, the rest of the "ZWO environment" is what fully enables my setup to pay off.
May be years ago I should not have purchased the NEQ6, then was stuck with no budget for a change, and since then other brands offer the same integrated environment as ZWO, if not better. But right now it's working out great for me.

Brian Puhl

IOTD Staff

May 13, 2023

For those that travel, harmonic drives make sense. I don't believe their performance is better than an EQ6. They do seem pretty solid though overall.

For those of us with backyard setups that never move…. I doubt they'll ever replace the EQ6 or better, a mount with absolute encoders.

Nick Grundy

May 13, 2023

I've been using both my CEM70 and HEM44EC consistently. The CEM70 is great for that higher payload, but it never leaves the house and I tend to try and leave it stood up for a fews days/nights of imaging.

The HEM44EC is greatsince I can carry the whole rig/scope wired up in and out each night. I used to only image when I expected a full clear night, but with the HEM44 kit, I can easily throw it outside for a few hours and bring it back in. And my back thanks me.

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Jan Erik Vallestad

May 14, 2023

I've been wondering the same and sold my modded HEQ5 PRO a short while ago. My intention is to replace it with the AM5, initially I was considering the EQ6R - but as I've spoken to a lot of AM5 users I've been sold on it myself. Easy setup, consistent and very low tracking error, no balancing and it handles the telescopes I want to use (my biggest is the Edge 8). Weight isn't an issue even though I set it up every time I shoot more or less (unless it's clear for several days at a time).

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Thomas

IOTD Staff

May 14, 2023

I don't think it is the end of classic eq mounts. They are tried and true tested mounts that come in a range of manufactures and price points that make it easier for people of varying budgets to get started. On the other hand, I for one am happy to see the harmonic drive mounts come out. They make great portable setups and as more hit the market, it should help bring the cost of them down. I'm excited to see what new options will come out but am not gunning to offload my CEM60 anytime soon.

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Eddie Bagwell

May 14, 2023 · Edited: May 14, 2023

I use the EQ6R-Pro and have been contemplating switching to a harmonic drive in the next 3-4 years as I am getting older and my mount and tripod are bolted together with an extension. It's fairly heavy and I have to carry it about 20 feet to its setup position. I can manage it now, but the weight will be a factor in a few years as I am turning 60 this summer. I'm hoping more harmonic drives will be available from more companies with improvements by then. But for now, my EQ6R works great and I see no reason to switch just yet.

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Bob Lockwood

May 14, 2023

Ok, I just have to jump in. This is like seeing so many people that would rather watch a movie on there phone then watching it in on t 60ft screen.
I'm pushing 66, have a really bad back, and I have no issue loading up either my Mach-1, 1100-AE or my 1200. Sometimes I'll take two setups, load
them in my truck and head out to the desert for two nights. My 1200 with the TEC180 plus counterweights is pushing 200lbs. Yes the 1200 is
about 95lb, that's why I got the 1100-AE. Don't get me wrong, small setup work great, the harmonic drives are making progress, but not for me.
I'll stick with my big mounts and big scopes until I can't pick them up, then I retire from the hobby.

Kiril Staridolski

Dec 2, 2023 · Edited: Dec 2, 2023

[pre]The problem with harmonic drives is their inferior performance, at least for now. They are easy toys, but I don't think they can compete with even cheap mounts like the Celestron VX. Even with this setup, under good seeing conditions with good balance and polar alignment, 0.30-0.50 RMS can be achieved in the PHD2. While AM5 can't get below 0.50 RMS all night average in most cases 0.60-0.80 RMS.[/pre]

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Oscar H.

Dec 2, 2023

Ed Dixon:
I sold my AVX mount last year due to the weight and back problems it caused every single time I moved it. I got a HEM27 to replace it. The AVX was 47 lb and the HEM27 is 13.

You moved it!

How is that possible? I could never lift my AVX an inch off the floor; it took 3 struggling people to move it 30 feet (with my telescope on).

The whole thing with the counterweights and my reflector is like 80lbs.

Guess what I did... I couldn't pick it up, I couldn't move it; it was gathering dust, not light.

I got an extremely overpriced telescope dolly from JMI and extremely overpriced tethering straps (the dolly and straps costed like $1200), but it worked.
I can move it by myself with only 1 arm, and it is very secure.

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Rafał Szwejkowski

IOTD Staff

Dec 3, 2023

It's not their end yet but their marketshare is going to be slowly fading, especially with the strain-motor mounts hitting lower price points.

Ashraf AbuSara

Dec 3, 2023 · Edited: Dec 3, 2023

Kiril Staridolski:

The problem with harmonic drives is their inferior performance, at least for now. They are easy toys, but I don't think they can compete with even cheap mounts like the Celestron VX. Even with this setup, under good seeing conditions with good balance and polar alignment, 0.30-0.50 RMS can be achieved in the PHD2. While AM5 can't get below 0.50 RMS all night average in most cases 0.60-0.80 RMS.

Sorry, but that is not even remotely true. The idea that the AVX out performs the AM5 is ridiculous. I have been running a C11 with a 0.7x reducer (38lb payload) on the AM5 for months now. It easily sits around 0.4-0.5" with that heavy focal length setup. Now I have upgraded to an HAE69ec, and it runs 0.25"-0.45" all night long with the same C11 setup.

I think the cheaper worm gear mounts like the EQ6 will have their market share severely eroded. The premium mounts will continue to command their segment. There aren't any harmonic mounts that will compete with the likes of the AP Mach2 anytime soon.

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Tommy Blomqvist

Dec 3, 2023

My thoughts on this is that the harmonic drive will take over a significant portion of the market.

If we are analyzing which mounts are used by users here on astrobin the majority is eq6r users (2300).
After that we have HEQ5 and AVX user (1600+1000) and AM5 has rushed up to around 800 users.So we don't need to compare AM5 and similar with Ioptron, Losmandy or 10Micron GEM, just the most popular Skywatcher mounts as that is by definition the majority of the market.
So we can estimate weight capacity and price range.
That means that we also can make soem assumptions on other parts of the equipment (right now).

It is clear that popular harmonic drives are capable to be used in these configuration with some big benifits.
The only concern is the price…

But if someone manage to motivate the CFO to buy a EQ6R pro for around 2200 USD there shouldn't be a big problem to add another 1100 USD to get a ZWO AM5 (or maybe they also got this fantastic sale with 50 or even 70% off?! ;) )

And maybe there will be some other harmonic mounts out there as soon as some manufacturers notice the potential in the pricerange 1500-3000 USD?

Lasse Skov

Dec 3, 2023

Markus R.:
Hey. Good question.
I probably have no real answer for you. I sold my HEQ5 for an iOptron HAE29 and I'm pretty pleased with it. The reason I made the switch was portability and ease of setting it up. I live in a city and have no car only a motorbike. Every cm and kg I could shave off my setup made it easier to get out of the city. So it was a easy decision to switch to a harmonic drive while keeping the carrying capacity.

I guess a lot of people live in cities and they maybe have similar problems.
When you have a backyard and are stationary a german eq mount might still be the better choice. They are less expensive for what you get and I'm a bit concerned about the long time reliability of harmonic drives because of the way they work.

But if you have to move your setup a lot and take it out to a dark site having a light and compact mount is a blessing. This might be the reason why a lot of people are changing. Also its a somewhat high end novalty, strongly marketed too. People are always drawn to things like that, i guess.

Clear Skies!

Yeah, how well harmonic drives performs over time is the big question. I own both a CGX and an AM5 and I love both for different reasons. The AM5 takes no time to setup and the CGX seems so sturdy that it can survive nuclear war.

Ashraf AbuSara

Dec 3, 2023 · Edited: Dec 3, 2023

Tommy Blomqvist:
My thoughts on this is that the harmonic drive will take over a significant portion of the market.

If we are analyzing which mounts are used by users here on astrobin the majority is eq6r users (2300).
After that we have HEQ5 and AVX user (1600+1000) and AM5 has rushed up to around 800 users.So we don't need to compare AM5 and similar with Ioptron, Losmandy or 10Micron GEM, just the most popular Skywatcher mounts as that is by definition the majority of the market.
So we can estimate weight capacity and price range.
That means that we also can make soem assumptions on other parts of the equipment (right now).

It is clear that popular harmonic drives are capable to be used in these configuration with some big benifits.
The only concern is the price...

But if someone manage to motivate the CFO to buy a EQ6R pro for around 2200 USD there shouldn't be a big problem to add another 1100 USD to get a ZWO AM5 (or maybe they also got this fantastic sale with 50 or even 70% off?! ;) )

And maybe there will be some other harmonic mounts out there as soon as some manufacturers notice the potential in the pricerange 1500-3000 USD?

The AM5 mount head here in the US retails for $2000. With the tripod it is $2300. HAE from iOptron also retails for $2000. Skywatcher has been forced to cut prices down to $1750 due to competition from the AM5.

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Arny

Dec 3, 2023

Yes,
over time the huge robotics industry and its commodity supply behind the harmonic drives will prevail and dominate the market for the smaller weight, higher torques and more fully integrated designs.

I started on a an HEQ5 and then added an AM5, so have worked with a classical and a modern equatorial mount.
I run an 10kg 8" newtonian, a 7kg 86mm Apo and an 13kg 11" SCT - plus a 5kg image train on both mounts.

On the lighter scopes the AM5 wins in all categories:
guiding accuracy, weight, easy of setup, excellent machinery of adjusting the polar alignment, integration into the AsiAir plus (which is of course a deliberate vendor lock-in).

I was very sceptical whether the AM5 would hold the SCT, but am astonished how well it manages it.
In fact I must use a 5kg counterweight, as otherwise the scope cannot return from extreme positions due to too much torgue. But at least the software tells me instead of the motor grinding the sprockets.

Guiding has been as low as 0.3 arcsec on the AM5 where I never got the HEQ5 below 0.8.

From software management to engineering the AM5 is just a much more modern piece of engineering.
Very noticable by the harmonic gear drive vs. gear sprockets, the polar align adjustment knobs, the connection mechanics between the mount and the tripod and the scope.
All is much more advanced than the HEQ5, which appears as a 1990 combination of well functioning components, but not like a 2023 fully integrated design as the AM5. Last but not least the old fashioned HEQ5 red glowing hand controller with soft buttons speaks for himself :-)

On the other hand Skywatcher did an indredible electromecanical job in building consumer budget devices sub sub arcsecond guiding and thus revolutionizing hobby astronomomy and - photography, and we are all gratefull for that.

But ZWO was very smart in taking the best practice engineering outcomes of industry robots, the harmonic drives, workhorses of any factory of today, and wrapping it in a fully integrated design.

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Jeff Reitzel

Dec 3, 2023 · Edited: Dec 3, 2023

It's about portability and a second great imaging rig to me. I have a Paramount MyT, Celestron CGEM DX, and added an Ioptron HAE43EC. The CGEM DX is now my go to visual mount for star parties. The MyT and HAE43EC are my imaging mounts with the MyT handling my larger scopes. As far as guiding and overall imaging performance the HAE43EC easily equals the MyT nearly every session. Guiding for both generally falls into the 0.1-0.3 RMS error range. Even though the HAE43EC has a 55lb payload capacity I personally would never load it with any of my scopes over 4 inch unless it was on a rock solid permanent pier. Yes it works equally well with my Edge 11 imaging rig on it but that is just beyond my personal comfort level on a portable tripod. Performance also suffers a lot if there is any flex in the tripod and I have yet to find one that doesn't flex under heavy off balance loads like that. That slight flex is a primary cause of raising the guiding error up to the 0.6-0.8 RMS error range you often see talked about with these mounts. At least that has been my experience. It's hard to beat the portability of a 4 inch refractor with the HAE43EC as a quick grab-and-go to run out to a dark site for some imaging with friends.
CS,
Jeff

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John Hayes

Frequent contributor

Exemplary contributor

Dec 3, 2023

This really isn’t a question about German Equatorial mounts. It’s a question about the way that the mount is driven—and to a large extent how well it has to be balanced. Most of the harmonic drive (HD) mounts that I’ve seen are used in the GE configuration. Furthermore, the discussion here just centers on one segment of the market, namely the market for small, portable mounts used mostly for “backyard class” imaging systems. HD mounts can be made to run medium sized mounts for 10” - 14” imaging systems but they become prohibitively expensive and they are completely unnecessary for permanently mounted scopes in observatories. The key advantage of a HD system is that it can be run completely out of balance, which enables a very compact mount without counter weights. Of course the big thing to watch out for is that since the whole system runs completely out of balance, the entire setup can tip over if the CG goes beyond the limits of what the supporting system (e.g. tripod or pier) can handle. I personally really like the idea of a HD mount for small telescopes or even just a wide field camera but they are pretty pricy and now that I’m a remote imager, I’m passed the point of spending long nights outside imaging.

Ironically at the larger end of the market, gear-less servo drives that incorporate precision encoders have almost completely taken over. Planewave’s L-series mounts dominate the market for larger systems (>=16”) in observatory installations although there are a few other servo driven mounts from others as well (e.g. ASA). In all of those systems, precise balance is critical to proper operation. Not only are these mounts extremely precise but they offer stunning slew rates. 50 degrees per second is not uncommon and it’s possible to be injured if you stand too close to one of these mounts when it does a high speed slew. There are a number of benefits to such high slew rates and one is very rapid sky modeling. I can easily plow through a 70+ point sky model with my 20” on a L500 mount in about 10 minutes.

I also run a Mach2 remotely and it is a total workhorse. Frankly, I think that it is the best mount that AP has ever made. In my view, it doesn’t fall into the class of mounts competing with HD mounts and even if it were, I’d have a hard time believing that a HD system could deliver similar performance and reliability. I regularly see total rms guide errors in the range of 0.15” - 0.25” with the Mach2.

Will HD mounts replace standard gear driven GE mounts? I doubt it but cost and time will ultimately tell…

John

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