Is there such thing as a tri band filter like the L-Enhance that only allows Ha, OIII, and SII? I don't even know if that's possible but figured I'd ask.
Tri-band filter question
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There is quad-band but it is very very expensive, from OPT I believe.
Most tri band filters available are H-alpha, H-beta, and Oiii. The OPT quad band mentioned before does include Sii but it is close to US $1100. I have had one since they first came out and really do like it for certain targets. Not so much for others. I prefer to just image with a mono cam now and go back to my OSC cam for fun once in a while. If narrow band is not an option for you there are dual band filters available that combine Ha/Oiii as well as Sii/Oiii I believe. It would be cheaper to just get a good Sii filter to go with your Ha/Oiii dual band to add Sii data. My experience is very few targets are really going to see a huge benefit from adding Sii data with a OSC camera. It would be some pretty advanced processing to separate the Sii and Ha data as well since they are both in the red channel. Sii is just a much deeper red.
CS
Jeff
CS
Jeff
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Haha…sometimes cheap is expensive! Just count how many scopes I've through before landing on the one that I find really satisfactory!
I bought the Radian Triad Ultra Narrowband filter and have really been amazed by it. I have an IDAS standard pollution filter for RGB targets (HEUBI-II) and the Triad. Between the two, I can shoot in pretty miserable conditions. I have no desire for any other special-use filter…which saves me money in the long run. Almost all emission-related images on my Astrobin page uses the filter. And I often combine RGB stacks with Triad stacks when shooting galaxies. Really brings out the nebulae on those targets.
I bought the Radian Triad Ultra Narrowband filter and have really been amazed by it. I have an IDAS standard pollution filter for RGB targets (HEUBI-II) and the Triad. Between the two, I can shoot in pretty miserable conditions. I have no desire for any other special-use filter…which saves me money in the long run. Almost all emission-related images on my Astrobin page uses the filter. And I often combine RGB stacks with Triad stacks when shooting galaxies. Really brings out the nebulae on those targets.
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@Dave Rust That's the filter I'm looking for! Do you shoot mono or color? I was just looking at some photos on optcorp's page for this filter, and I'm seeing many photos that look very similar if not the same as the L-Enhance. Those red-orange-yellow-blue nebulae shots I see everywhere, the Hubble palette is it? Can this filter + OSC capture that kind of data? Or at least give me the data to process and make that palette?
I shoot a color camera, so no Hubble palette for me, sorry to say. I tend to prefer more natural coloring...at least at this point in the hobby.
The Triad singles out three bands. in that fashion, the filter can indeed be used on a Mono camera, sometimes in combination with other filters, to add contrast and detail to the Hubble, or CMYK, palette.
I found this article on the fast version of the filter (one designed to work better with scopes below ƒ3.0). Otherwise, most of the details on performance also apply to the standard filter. The author mentions mono camera use later in the article. Maybe he gets closer to answering your question.
https://astrogeartoday.com/radian-triad-ultra-filter-for-fast-optical-systems-reviewed/
The Triad singles out three bands. in that fashion, the filter can indeed be used on a Mono camera, sometimes in combination with other filters, to add contrast and detail to the Hubble, or CMYK, palette.
I found this article on the fast version of the filter (one designed to work better with scopes below ƒ3.0). Otherwise, most of the details on performance also apply to the standard filter. The author mentions mono camera use later in the article. Maybe he gets closer to answering your question.
https://astrogeartoday.com/radian-triad-ultra-filter-for-fast-optical-systems-reviewed/
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Is there such thing as a tri band filter like the L-Enhance that only allows Ha, OIII, and SII? I don't even know if that's possible but figured I'd ask.
The Radian Ultra Quad-band narrowband filter is simply awesome. Depending upon the target, SHO and HOO palettes are certainly possible. Mostly HOO though as the Sii is within the Red channel, as is Hb. I have the L-pro for reflection nebula and galaxies, etc, but the Quad shoots all the rest. The L-enhance doesn't get used much these days. My bin has a few examples of this. Cheers!
@Monty Chandler it seems like these narrowband filters are better suited for mono cameras, to take advantage of the split channels. I've been seeing images taken with triad and other expensive filters with OSC and they look the same as the L-Enhance, so I'll just stick to that.
Btw, Hb is in the blue-green part of the spectrum.
Btw, Hb is in the blue-green part of the spectrum.
Sorry, I am a little puzzled by the discussion. How would it be reasonable to uae a tri- or quad-band filter with a mono camera? Of course, you would get a nice image. But it would be mono. No way to separate the different color signals anymore. Those filters arr designed for use with OSC.
@Monty Chandler it seems like these narrowband filters are better suited for mono cameras, to take advantage of the split channels. I've been seeing images taken with triad and other expensive filters with OSC and they look the same as the L-Enhance, so I'll just stick to that.
Btw, Hb is in the blue-green part of the spectrum.
*** yes, I use a osc camera.
There is no way to separate the S2 from the Ha or the Hb from the O3 when using the Radian Triad Ultra with OSC camera. The S2/Ha will both map to the red pixels and the O3/Hb will both map to the green/blue pixels. You can use various pixel math expressions along with masking and curves techniques to create an image that has the same kind of coloring you'd see in a true SHO image created with a mono sensor and dedicated filters.
Given the above, you might be asking why the quad band filter even exists. The added bandpasses will give some more structure (well, at least the S2 will). The Hb doesn't give any different structure than the Ha data. However, the light _will_ have an impact. You'll get some more purple in the hydrogen areas (because Ha is red and Hb is blue).
While expensive, I think the Radian Ultra does provide some additional structure/light to data you capture with OSC sensors. Whether that's worth the cost of the filter is up to you to decide
Given the above, you might be asking why the quad band filter even exists. The added bandpasses will give some more structure (well, at least the S2 will). The Hb doesn't give any different structure than the Ha data. However, the light _will_ have an impact. You'll get some more purple in the hydrogen areas (because Ha is red and Hb is blue).
While expensive, I think the Radian Ultra does provide some additional structure/light to data you capture with OSC sensors. Whether that's worth the cost of the filter is up to you to decide
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@Jonny Bravo I wonder how much extra structure will be visible using the Radian Ultra compared to the L-Enhance. In Photoshop curves, when I use the per-channel contrast enhance, it brings out the different colors very well, but it fries the image. If I can find out how to get that effect without cooking the image that would be cool. Right now I take my stacked DSS raw into PS, copy/paste each channel's data into a new image (same dimensions and bit depth) then work from there. I find I get more color control and dynamic range with this method as opposed to just working with the stacked raw directly.
@Jonny Bravo I wonder how much extra structure will be visible using the Radian Ultra compared to the L-Enhance. In Photoshop curves, when I use the per-channel contrast enhance, it brings out the different colors very well, but it fries the image. If I can find out how to get that effect without cooking the image that would be cool. Right now I take my stacked DSS raw into PS, copy/paste each channel's data into a new image (same dimensions and bit depth) then work from there. I find I get more color control and dynamic range with this method as opposed to just working with the stacked raw directly.
I don't know how they'd compare. The additional structure you'd get is the inclusion of the S2 band with the Ultra that you don't get with the L-E. Also, the L-E includes a far wider band of light around the Hb/O3 wavelengths, so the Ultra would likely provide more contrast.
When I've edited OSC data taken with these types of filters, I almost always separate the channels and work them individually. That's probably because I shoot mono, and am used to working the separate channels. I usually end up combining them back using pixel math expressions (I use PI for my editing).
Jonny Bravo:
There is no way to separate the S2 from the Ha or the Hb from the O3 when using the Radian Triad Ultra with OSC camera. The S2/Ha will both map to the red pixels and the O3/Hb will both map to the green/blue pixels. You can use various pixel math expressions along with masking and curves techniques to create an image that has the same kind of coloring you'd see in a true SHO image created with a mono sensor and dedicated filters.
Given the above, you might be asking why the quad band filter even exists. The added bandpasses will give some more structure (well, at least the S2 will). The Hb doesn't give any different structure than the Ha data. However, the light _will_ have an impact. You'll get some more purple in the hydrogen areas (because Ha is red and Hb is blue).
While expensive, I think the Radian Ultra does provide some additional structure/light to data you capture with OSC sensors. Whether that's worth the cost of the filter is up to you to decide
Well actually the H-beta line is more into the B channel than the OIII emission lines so there is a way to tell them apart, at least in approximate way. The H-beta is most emphatically not necessarily having the same structure as the H-alpha (different scattering for once) and in PNs it does stand out from H-alpha, pity it is rather weak compared to OIIIs and Ha.
Hb is not as…"EXCITING" has Ha….
Sorry, there is no way you can have such a filter with an OSC camera, as both SII an Ha would light up you red channel, doesn't matter if your filter can separate them, your camera cannot.
However, there is the IDAS NB3 filter, which is a duoband filter that passes SII only in the red, and OIII in the blue-green. So if you use the L-eXtreme to do Ha/OIII then you can do another set of exposures with the NB3 as SII/OIII. It does double up on the OIII, but that is not necessarily a bad thing since OIII in many targets is not that strong.
I have not tried it, yet, though I will, as there is no reason it will not work very well. If you search you will find others who use this filter with good results.
CS
Rick
However, there is the IDAS NB3 filter, which is a duoband filter that passes SII only in the red, and OIII in the blue-green. So if you use the L-eXtreme to do Ha/OIII then you can do another set of exposures with the NB3 as SII/OIII. It does double up on the OIII, but that is not necessarily a bad thing since OIII in many targets is not that strong.
I have not tried it, yet, though I will, as there is no reason it will not work very well. If you search you will find others who use this filter with good results.
CS
Rick
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I must be missing something here in that I use dual narrow band filters with my OSC, but when I process the data in APP I’m able to extract the Oiii & Ha channels. Then for the SII I create a synthetic channel and then combine the channels for the respective color pallet. I have many images on my profile that I’ve done this to. So I don't understand the comment that this can’t be done with a OSC camera.
If I was to do shoot my data with say the quad and or triad filters I’d just do the same thing in APP, so I don’t understand why others are saying you can not do this. For me however I’m happy with just the DNB filters that I use so the extra $ that these Tri & Quad band filters cost isn’t worth it to me.
Sorry if I’m missing something here.
If I was to do shoot my data with say the quad and or triad filters I’d just do the same thing in APP, so I don’t understand why others are saying you can not do this. For me however I’m happy with just the DNB filters that I use so the extra $ that these Tri & Quad band filters cost isn’t worth it to me.
Sorry if I’m missing something here.
Dale Penkala:
I must be missing something here in that I use dual narrow band filters with my OSC, but when I process the data in APP I’m able to extract the Oiii & Ha channels. Then for the SII I create a synthetic channel and then combine the channels for the respective color pallet. I have many images on my profile that I’ve done this to. So I don't understand the comment that this can’t be done with a OSC camera.
If I was to do shoot my data with say the quad and or triad filters I’d just do the same thing in APP, so I don’t understand why others are saying you can not do this. For me however I’m happy with just the DNB filters that I use so the extra $ that these Tri & Quad band filters cost isn’t worth it to me.
Sorry if I’m missing something here.
What can't be done with the tri-/quad-band filters is the separation of signals. There is absolutely no way to say "this red pixel is S2 and that red pixel is Ha" or "this blue pixel is O3 and that blue pixel is Hb". With a dual-band filter you get Ha and O3 light. Those you _can_ separate pretty effectively as the Ha will map to the red pixels and the O3 will map to the green/blue pixels. I wrote "pretty effectively" because most OSC sensors have some amount of bleed (i.e. green picking up red light wavelengths). For example, take a look at the graph for the 2600MC and you'll see about 15% green and 5% blue response at the Ha wavelength.
So, let's say you have a filter like the Radian Ultra and it gives you S2, Ha, O3 and Hb. There is no way at all for you to say "I'm putting S2 into R, Ha into G and O3 into B". It cannot be done. You have to do what you're doing: create some kind of synthetic channel based on whatever combination you like.
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However, there is the IDAS NB3 filter, which is a duoband filter that passes SII only in the red, and OIII in the blue-green. So if you use the L-eXtreme to do Ha/OIII then you can do another set of exposures with the NB3 as SII/OIII. It does double up on the OIII, but that is not necessarily a bad thing since OIII in many targets is not that strong.
Unfortunately the NB3 is now discontinued. I tried to buy one to complement data gathered with my L Extreme. However, Askar now have something very similar
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Jonny Bravo:Dale Penkala:
I must be missing something here in that I use dual narrow band filters with my OSC, but when I process the data in APP I’m able to extract the Oiii & Ha channels. Then for the SII I create a synthetic channel and then combine the channels for the respective color pallet. I have many images on my profile that I’ve done this to. So I don't understand the comment that this can’t be done with a OSC camera.
If I was to do shoot my data with say the quad and or triad filters I’d just do the same thing in APP, so I don’t understand why others are saying you can not do this. For me however I’m happy with just the DNB filters that I use so the extra $ that these Tri & Quad band filters cost isn’t worth it to me.
Sorry if I’m missing something here.
What can't be done with the tri-/quad-band filters is the separation of signals. There is absolutely no way to say "this red pixel is S2 and that red pixel is Ha" or "this blue pixel is O3 and that blue pixel is Hb". With a dual-band filter you get Ha and O3 light. Those you _can_ separate pretty effectively as the Ha will map to the red pixels and the O3 will map to the green/blue pixels. I wrote "pretty effectively" because most OSC sensors have some amount of bleed (i.e. green picking up red light wavelengths). For example, take a look at the graph for the 2600MC and you'll see about 15% green and 5% blue response at the Ha wavelength.
So, let's say you have a filter like the Radian Ultra and it gives you S2, Ha, O3 and Hb. There is no way at all for you to say "I'm putting S2 into R, Ha into G and O3 into B". It cannot be done. You have to do what you're doing: create some kind of synthetic channel based on whatever combination you like.
If I wanted to truly get a SII channel then I would purchase an SII filter and shoot it in mono mode for the SII channel and be done. Grant it, it wouldn’t be as efficient as a true mono camera but I’ve heard/read of others doing this. (Can’t remember where I read this) I’ve never done it and have thought about giving it a try just to see how what the results would be. I’ve been happy enough with what I’ve gotten so really never decided to spend the money on the SII filter to give it a go.
Dale Penkala:
If I wanted to truly get a SII channel then I would purchase an SII filter and shoot it in mono mode for the SII channel and be done. Grant it, it wouldn’t be as efficient as a true mono camera but I’ve heard/read of others doing this. (Can’t remember where I read this) I’ve never done it and have thought about giving it a try just to see how what the results would be. I’ve been happy enough with what I’ve gotten so really never decided to spend the money on the SII filter to give it a go.
People do, indeed, do just that. Askar makes a dual S2/O3 filter... so you could use the typical Ha/O3 filter on one night then the S2/O3 filter on another and you'd have your S2, Ha and O3 data channels. Probably be a bit more efficient than just using a straight S2 filter on the OSC sensor, since it would collect additional O3 signal at the same time
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Hi, there is Askar Colour Magic 6nm D Filter Package. Actually, not one but two filters: Hα+OIII and SII+OIII sold as a bundle.
https://www.askarlens.com/index.php/6nmcolourmagic/308.html
https://www.askarlens.com/index.php/6nmcolourmagic/308.html
So to compliment my L-Enhance filter should I get a straight SII filter and map that data to my green channel? Should produce interesting results.
So to compliment my L-Enhance filter should I get a straight SII filter and map that data to my green channel? Should produce interesting results.
If it was me (which as I stated above) thats what I would do if I wanted that channel, but according to Jonny he seems to think that Askar filter is a better option. That link to the Askar setup that @Mariusz Golebiewski posted is another option (or maybe thats the filter Jonny is referring to) too I suppose. I’d still do the individual myself, but thats just me.
Dale
Rick Veregin:
However, there is the IDAS NB3 filter, which is a duoband filter that passes SII only in the red, and OIII in the blue-green.
I have the NB3 filter and, while I have used it to good effect to isolate Sii, I would no longer recommend it due to its wide bandwidths resulting in very poor Oiii signal. There is now an Askar ColourMagic 6nm Sii/Oiii Duo Band filter which has much better specifications and performance.
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