Do I have too much invested in one scope?

Sky-Watcher EQ6-R Pro Equipment Equatorial Mount Buying Advice
13 replies•993 views
Phil Creed avatar
Phil Creed avatar
I'm a budget-conscious astronomer, so I like to think I've got things properly allocated.  As someone who's VERY averse to debt, I only buy things I can comfortably afford in "one go".  No astro purchase interferes with the ability to make the car payment because I haven't HAD a car payment since 2008.

After some time, I've got the following:

Cameras:  Modded Nikon D5300, Modded Nikon D5500

Mounts:  SW Star Adventurer, Sirius EQ-G (HEQ5, not modded)

Lens:  135mm Samyang f/2.0

Scopes:  AT60ED + 0.8X (288mm FL at f/4.8 ), Televue non-IS NP101 (540mm FL)

I use the AT60 on the SA and the NP101 on the HEQ5.  Guiding with ZWO 120MM, WO 32mm Uniguide (120mm FL) and ASI Air Pro

The NP101 is my dream scope.  It's one I've longed for, particularly from my visual days.

What's the issue?  I've got twice invested in the scope as I do the mount.  If you figure what the NP101 and HEQ5 are worth, I could get an EQ6-R, a used AT102EDL and enough left over to probably spring for a 533MC–with the option of adding an even heftier / longer focal length scope in the future.  As it stands now, I'm limited to 540mm focal length.  Current weight when assembled for imaging is ~15 lbs, guiding is ~1.0" RMS.

But, of course…Good Lord, it's a FREAKING NP101.  I mean, the thing's already at a natively fast speed without having to worry about spacers.  I've seen pinched optics in quite a few imported refractors, but there's none in this.  Color correction is simply perfect.  I went to STUPID lengths to coax false color out of it on the most demanding visual targets and saw none.  Even my AT115EDT would have minor CA if I pushed past 250X on Vega on some nights.

Part of me thinks just swap the HEQ5 for an EQ6-R, keep the NP101 and call it good.  Another part of me says apply the worth of the NP101 and/or HEQ5 towards a new mount and more scopes and at least open up the possibility of 1,000mm+ focal lengths.  A third part says stand pat and belt mod and/or tune the HEQ5.

Thoughts on what I should do?  Currently leaning towards keeping the NP101 and upgrading the mount because…it's an NP101.  That's a hard thing to give up.  Just wondering what others out there might be thinking.

Thanks in advance to all feedback.

Clear Skies,
Phil
Helpful Insightful Engaging
Bruce Donzanti avatar
Bruce Donzanti avatar
Hi Phil

For me (and it paid off), it was always about buying the best mount I can afford.  The scope was second and the accessories and software followed afterwards.  I have two mounts, an AP 1100 for my C11" with an 80mm Stellarvue piggybacked onto it in my observatory.  My SkyWatcher Esprit 120mm is my portable setup on an AP Mach 1.   The mount is the cornerstone for anyone wanting to enjoy imaging.  The best mounts are the ones you don't even realize they are there when imaging (i.e., no issues).  You can always upgrade to another scope later if you want to.  

Bruce
Helpful Insightful Respectful
andrea tasselli avatar
andrea tasselli avatar
I see nothing special in the TV NP101. A good doublet but not on par with APs/TECs. From the point of view of imaging mount comes first and scope a rather distant second if not third, after the camera. So the choice for me would be obvious, get the best mount you can afford and want to keep for a long time, no half-way houses for me.
John avatar
John avatar
i have some sad news for you…its only the beginning smile

at the end you want better and  bigger scopes,mounts  cams etc.


but if you have fun with it.just enjoy !!!
kuechlew avatar
kuechlew avatar
Focusing the budget on the mount is certainly a good idea. However, these days there is a lot of development going on with plenty of new mounts announced. Since you already own one in your shoes I would just stick to what you have for now. With your two cameras you're imaging at approx 1.5 arcseconds pixel scale. I assume your current mount is good enough for your current setup. When you take the next step towards a smaller pixel scale you it's the right time to decide for a better mount.

Clear skies
Wolfgang
Helpful Insightful Respectful
Dave B avatar
Dave B avatar
andrea tasselli:
I see nothing special in the TV NP101. A good doublet but not on par with APs/TECs. From the point of view of imaging mount comes first and scope a rather distant second if not third, after the camera. So the choice for me would be obvious, get the best mount you can afford and want to keep for a long time, no half-way houses for me.

I have not looked through one, but an NP101 is a 4-element Nagler-Petzval design, not a doublet. Every report that I've seen says that they are on par with APs and TECs. But again, those are third hand reports, not from my personal experience. If I had one in hand, I would not give it up.

I can't comment if the HEQ-5 mount is up to the task of the NP101 or not. Can I assume that you image with a guider, either piggybacked with the AT60 or an OAG? At one arcsec RMS, you can probably do better, but I would try the cheap ways of improving first (e.g. motorized focuser if you don't already have one, making sure that your guide camera is precisely in focus, etc. Even if you upgrade your mount, those are still worthwhile exercises to do. 

Personally, I think that astrophotography is a hobby better suited to incrementally upgrading over time rather than buying everything at once. I would keep the NP101 and upgrade to a mount that is capable of handling a heavier, longer focal length scope in the future. And you may find that you can bring your current guiding below 1 arcsec RMS.
Helpful Insightful Respectful Engaging
SemiPro avatar
SemiPro avatar
Your limiting factor, aside from money, is going to be the mount. If you are going to get anything new I'd go for a new mount. The HEQ5 has a solid rep, but its still a beginner level mount. Even something like a CEM40 is going to be a heck of an upgrade just because of the quality of the gear system.

You'll just have to decide what you want out of astrophotography. If you love wide field stuff then what you have is fine. If you want to start hitting up galaxies and planetary nebula then you may need to consider a mount that can handle the telescopes that do that.
Helpful Concise
Dale Penkala avatar
Dale Penkala avatar
I hear you about buying after bills are paid and very much understand that as a person on a fixed income!  I do that as well!

As many here have stated the mount is primary for me as well. I’ve had quite a few mounts in the Celestron brand and while they did the job in the end I was able to pick up my Holy Grail mount which is my AP1200GTO. As @Bruce Donzanti stated the best mount is the one you do not have to question and it “just works” so I’m for the mount upgrade. Prior to my AP I always questioned my mounts if they were tracking good enough.

As for the NP101, its a great scope! I know many that have them (and while I have never looked thru one) and I’ve never really heard anything but glowing reviews on them. 

I agree with @SemiPro in that you will need to figure out if you want to stay wide field or go with more FL. Either way the mount still is priority in my eyes. And as @andrea tasselli mentioned, buy the best you can afford and enjoy the hobby.

Dale
Helpful Respectful Engaging Supportive
Phil Creed avatar
Phil Creed avatar
There is zero chance in the foreseeable future of acquiring any Astrophysics mount.  That is simply far beyond the budget.  Any hobby purchase that wipes out more than 10% of savings to me is simply a no-go, as I always pay for things in one go.  An EQ6-R, an iOptron GEM45 or a Losmandy GM-8 is more along what I'm thinking in terms of an upgraded mount within my budget.

I feel uncomfortable I have more invested in the mount than I do the NP101, even though I bought a used non-IS version, basically half of what a new -IS version retails for.  It's just that the NP101 has a faster native speed than most 0.8X-reduced triplets in that focal length range, and is stupid, STUPID sharp for high power visual observing.  And a part of me feels selling that scope to upgrade the mount will only make long for having the NP101 back after upgrading the mount, so I'm asking myself more and more, "then why entertain selling it?"

Clear Skies,
Phil
Victor Van Puyenbroeck avatar
Victor Van Puyenbroeck avatar
​​​​​When I started the hobby several years ago, I always searched Astrobin for two things: 1) images that were taken with similar gear under similar Bortle scales. 2) IOTD / TP images of the target I was shooting.  

Your profile does not list any images with the NP101 and HEQ5. Have you tried to compare? Are your stars e.g. bloated or streaked when compared to other users with an HEQ5? Maybe more important: do you like your own results? 

I personally don't see a huge need to upgrade the mount, the HEQ5 is very similar to the EQ6 performance wise apart from maximum load and should fine for your image scale. Have you considered installing a belt mod?

Sure, it would be nice to have a mount that requires no babysitting, but you can do amazing things with shorter exposures and guiding on affordable mounts. Again, search astrobin to see what other users can do and if this matches your expectation / imaging goals.
Helpful Insightful Respectful Engaging Supportive
Dale Penkala avatar
Dale Penkala avatar
Phil Creed:
There is zero chance in the foreseeable future of acquiring any Astrophysics mount.  That is simply far beyond the budget.  Any hobby purchase that wipes out more than 10% of savings to me is simply a no-go, as I always pay for things in one go.  An EQ6-R, an iOptron GEM45 or a Losmandy GM-8 is more along what I'm thinking in terms of an upgraded mount within my budget.

I feel uncomfortable I have more invested in the mount than I do the NP101, even though I bought a used non-IS version, basically half of what a new -IS version retails for.  It's just that the NP101 has a faster native speed than most 0.8X-reduced triplets in that focal length range, and is stupid, STUPID sharp for high power visual observing.  And a part of me feels selling that scope to upgrade the mount will only make long for having the NP101 back after upgrading the mount, so I'm asking myself more and more, "then why entertain selling it?"

Clear Skies,
Phil

Phil, I never said buy an AP mount, my analogy was nothing more then stating buy what you can afford. I never would have thought I’d buy an AP mount 25-30 years ago but I was blessed with a situation that allowed me to be able to afford it.

As far as your NP101 If you like it keep it. They are a highly praised scope especially for visual work and I know people that have used them for imaging with excellent results.

Best of luck to you!

Dale
Respectful Supportive
kuechlew avatar
kuechlew avatar
Victor Van Puyenbroeck:
​​​​​When I started the hobby several years ago, I always searched Astrobin for two things: 1) images that were taken with similar gear under similar Bortle scales. 2) IOTD / TP images of the target I was shooting.  

Your profile does not list any images with the NP101 and HEQ5. Have you tried to compare? Are your stars e.g. bloated or streaked when compared to other users with an HEQ5? Maybe more important: do you like your own results? 

I personally don't see a huge need to upgrade the mount, the HEQ5 is very similar to the EQ6 performance wise apart from maximum load and should fine for your image scale. Have you considered installing a belt mod?

Sure, it would be nice to have a mount that requires no babysitting, but you can do amazing things with shorter exposures and guiding on affordable mounts. Again, search astrobin to see what other users can do and if this matches your expectation / imaging goals.

Excellent comment Victor. I believe long exposures are sort of a "macho thing" among astrophotographers. It seems to be a sort of competition who manages to perform the longest guided / unguided exposure. I'm usually sky limited after 60 to 90 seconds and I have a lot of planes and satellites passing by. So it's way smarter to aim at short exposures. You will need more disk space, but disk space is very cheap these days. 40 years ago as a high school student I had to work for 3 weeks to be able to afford my first 30 MB (!) hard drive. These days a single exposure of my camera would hardly fit on this drive and you get 8 TB of SSD for less money (without accounting for inflation). We've come a long way and we live in the best of times (so far ...).

You don't have to push things to the limit and perform astrophotography without a mount by taking hundreds or thousands of 1-2 sec exposures like this: 
Tracker vs. No Tracker for ASTROPHOTOGRAPHY (Shooting the Pleiades) - YouTube
4 Best WITHOUT a Star Tracker, N. Hemisphere Edition - YouTube
4 Best WITHOUT a Star Tracker, Southern Hemisphere Edition - YouTube
Olga W. Ismael's gallery - AstroBin

Once again I can only point out: Stick to what you have and try to get the maximum out of it before entering "upgrade hell". There is always a better mount, a better tripod/pier, a better scope ...

If money is not an issue, do what you like. In case you're on a budget, enjoy what you own already. The videos above prove that you can do a lot with a very slim budget. I assume there are very few astrophotographers who are really limited by their gear ... (but plenty who believe they are ...).

Clear skies
Wolfgang
Helpful Insightful Respectful Engaging Supportive
Phil Creed avatar
Phil Creed avatar
My issue is, if I want to go LONGER in focal length, I might be bumping up against the limitations of the mount (i.e. 8" SCT).  In that case, I might have been better off with the same money invested in an NP101 + HEQ5 allocated for an EQ6-R and a 4" f/7 FPL-53/FCD100 doublet (i.e. Stellarvue Access 102, ZS103, AT102EDL), as I wouldn't have worried about going up in focal length/weight from my NP101.

Right now, I'm leaning towards upgrading the mount in a few years' time.  I have given thought to the belt mod.  I have noticed that my guiding is generally harder to tame in RA vs. DEC.

I haven't posted any pics yet of the NP101 + HEQ5 combo because I haven't got around to it.  I've *just* learned how to autoguide without–WITHOUT–doing an impromptu Sam Kinison impersonation.

I can say the mount does just fine with the NP101.  I'll post a few pics I've gotten with this combo in the next few days.

Clear Skies,
Phil
Phil Creed avatar
Phil Creed avatar
For those that wanted to see an image from my new toy, I just posted my latest grab, the Crescent Nebula.  Shot through the NP101.

https://www.astrobin.com/yz70xl/

Clear Skies,
Phil
Well Written Engaging