Is drizzle2x then downsampled helping?

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YingtianZZZ avatar

📷 e4e1ced3abe5509ac2157d341120008e.pnge4e1ced3abe5509ac2157d341120008e.pngI’ve done a side by side test, left is original non-drizzle, and right is 2x drizzle. Both used with BXT with basic setting, and right side was downsampled to original resolution, and used STF at linear space. The picture is about 15hr integration of M49 by 2600MM and SQA85.

📷 image.pngimage.png

📷 image.png

I also did FWHM Eccentricity test using PI, two models give different numbers:

Gaussian:

original: 📷 image.pngimage.pngdrizzled: 📷 image.pngimage.pngLorentzian:

original:📷 image.pngimage.pngdrizzled: 📷 image.pngimage.pngFrom my understanding, Median FWHM should be smaller the better, as pixel size are the same. However, if understanding this way, Gaussians shows drizzled is better, while Lorentzian shows original is better. How should I understand these numbers?

Read noise Astrophotography avatar

I am curious to know more hopefully someone answers soon

andrea tasselli avatar
You are severely undersampled so those metrics really aren't useful. Between the two the Gaussian form would be the more reliable but then again I wouldn't put too much stock in that one either.
Brian Puhl avatar

At that pixel scale, theres very little argument against drizzle IMO. You’re undersampled in most cases. I would always do it provided you have enough integration time.

I wouldn’t read into the before and after FWHM’s much. The difference you’re pointing out is extremely negligible and not really noteworthy at all. Use the eyeball, does it look like an improvement? Then send it!

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Rick Veregin avatar

Andrea and Brian are correct you are under-sampled, you can see it visually, or as Brian mentioned, from your plate scale. Under-sampled is where a 2X drizzle would help your image with a better-defined point spread function and improved resolution. So understanding how much drizzle is helping you is an important question.

The main issue I see with your analysis is that you have not chosen the right kind of image for this comparison and you have done too much to the image before trying to do this analysis.

You should choose an image or a part of an image that has mostly medium bright stars and not many bright saturated stars, and preferably no nebulosity or elliptical galaxies that might be confused as stars. This is image is totally washing out the stars, so fitting these stars to any model is very problematic.

Also, I would fit way less stars, you want to look at the medium brightness stars and not pick up too many faint ones. You probably have more than 10X too many stars counted, likely some of these stars are just noise. It also is a good idea to use the centre of a FOV if there are any aberrations away from the center of the frame.

In processing to find the impact of drizzle, treat your image with care, do only calibrations, background correction and a simple and non-aggressive stretch. An image with medium bright stars, like a distant open cluster that is well resolved would be perfect, and doesn’t require a strong stretch which can distort the psf, and will provide good contrast and S/N. You did BXT on these images, that changes star shapes, you want to be working on as natural a psf as you can, so do not do any sort of star shaping processing or even deconvolution, work with the least manipulation of the data.

Finally, for the drizzled data, it appears you ran it on the downscaled image. Instead, run it on the drizzled image. Any pixel values can be divided by 2 to compare, other values are not going to change. Again, you are manipulating the result after the drizzle, which can affect the result.

In other words, drizzle impacts your raw image quality, you want to keep it as close as possible to that to understand the improvement. And with a better image quality with drizzle your entire further processing workflow will need to be adjusted.

Now, while the data here is not suitable for a proper analysis due to the issues above, here is the sort of analysis you need to do.

You need to find what is the correct model for your psf. The usual psf when viewed from earth is a Moffat distribution, which is somewhere between Gaussian and Lorentzian, though one should remember that any of the distributions are an approximation. Lorentzian’s give a narrower peak, but then have a wide base or wings, which Gaussian’s do not have. This means that the fit of a Lorentzian depends on these fainter wings, which are noisier. So if your S/N is not great the Lorentzian fit can be problematic.

Now you fitted both models to the data, the question you should ask the model results is which model is most accurate to fit your data. That is the model you should use. Again, though neither a Gaussian or a Lorentzian is likely going to be best of all models, there is likely a Moffat that is better.

So let’s look at the model quality as an illustration. We will ignore small changes as they are affected by noise.

The median residual is the median value of the deviations from the model in DN or ADU units, so how much the intensity in the model deviates from the data. The MAD FWHM is the variance of the FWHM data from the model in pixels, and the MAD residual is the variance of the residual deviations from the model, so again the variance to the model of the intensities in the data psf.

As you can see, there is a huge difference in two of these metrics, with the Lorentzian model not fitting the data anywhere near as well as the Gaussian. With both models the fit of the data to the model improves with drizzle. So if we take all this at face value the Gaussian model is much better and drizzle gives a better fit to the data. Because you are under-sampled originally, there are few pixels to define the stars (except for the very bright ones which are spread out over more pixels), thus the model before drizzle has a hard time fitting the data. More pixels after drizzle gives more precision to the data and thus to the model. When you see the model improve this dramatically you know that you were under-sampled, and to this extent at least, drizzle is helping no matter what model you base it on—your data is now more precise.

Again, due to the problems I outlined, the small differences in FWHM etc are surely just noise.

📷 image.pngimage.png

Personally, in my own setup I am close to being sampled correctly by theory. However, I always notice an improvement in FWHM with drizzle. If you are under-sampled, there should be a significant difference with FWHM on drizzle, I think suitable data and processing will show that for you.

I hope this helps you see what needs to be done to choose a model and then to ask questions whether drizzle helps.

Rick

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YingtianZZZ avatar

Rick Veregin · Jan 17, 2026, 09:39 PM

Andrea and Brian are correct you are under-sampled, you can see it visually, or as Brian mentioned, from your plate scale. Under-sampled is where a 2X drizzle would help your image with a better-defined point spread function and improved resolution. So understanding how much drizzle is helping you is an important question.

The main issue I see with your analysis is that you have not chosen the right kind of image for this comparison and you have done too much to the image before trying to do this analysis.

You should choose an image or a part of an image that has mostly medium bright stars and not many bright saturated stars, and preferably no nebulosity or elliptical galaxies that might be confused as stars. This is image is totally washing out the stars, so fitting these stars to any model is very problematic.

Also, I would fit way less stars, you want to look at the medium brightness stars and not pick up too many faint ones. You probably have more than 10X too many stars counted, likely some of these stars are just noise. It also is a good idea to use the centre of a FOV if there are any aberrations away from the center of the frame.

In processing to find the impact of drizzle, treat your image with care, do only calibrations, background correction and a simple and non-aggressive stretch. An image with medium bright stars, like a distant open cluster that is well resolved would be perfect, and doesn’t require a strong stretch which can distort the psf, and will provide good contrast and S/N. You did BXT on these images, that changes star shapes, you want to be working on as natural a psf as you can, so do not do any sort of star shaping processing or even deconvolution, work with the least manipulation of the data.

Finally, for the drizzled data, it appears you ran it on the downscaled image. Instead, run it on the drizzled image. Any pixel values can be divided by 2 to compare, other values are not going to change. Again, you are manipulating the result after the drizzle, which can affect the result.

In other words, drizzle impacts your raw image quality, you want to keep it as close as possible to that to understand the improvement. And with a better image quality with drizzle your entire further processing workflow will need to be adjusted.

Now, while the data here is not suitable for a proper analysis due to the issues above, here is the sort of analysis you need to do.

You need to find what is the correct model for your psf. The usual psf when viewed from earth is a Moffat distribution, which is somewhere between Gaussian and Lorentzian, though one should remember that any of the distributions are an approximation. Lorentzian’s give a narrower peak, but then have a wide base or wings, which Gaussian’s do not have. This means that the fit of a Lorentzian depends on these fainter wings, which are noisier. So if your S/N is not great the Lorentzian fit can be problematic.

Now you fitted both models to the data, the question you should ask the model results is which model is most accurate to fit your data. That is the model you should use. Again, though neither a Gaussian or a Lorentzian is likely going to be best of all models, there is likely a Moffat that is better.

So let’s look at the model quality as an illustration. We will ignore small changes as they are affected by noise.

The median residual is the median value of the deviations from the model in DN or ADU units, so how much the intensity in the model deviates from the data. The MAD FWHM is the variance of the FWHM data from the model in pixels, and the MAD residual is the variance of the residual deviations from the model, so again the variance to the model of the intensities in the data psf.

As you can see, there is a huge difference in two of these metrics, with the Lorentzian model not fitting the data anywhere near as well as the Gaussian. With both models the fit of the data to the model improves with drizzle. So if we take all this at face value the Gaussian model is much better and drizzle gives a better fit to the data. Because you are under-sampled originally, there are few pixels to define the stars (except for the very bright ones which are spread out over more pixels), thus the model before drizzle has a hard time fitting the data. More pixels after drizzle gives more precision to the data and thus to the model. When you see the model improve this dramatically you know that you were under-sampled, and to this extent at least, drizzle is helping no matter what model you base it on—your data is now more precise.

Again, due to the problems I outlined, the small differences in FWHM etc are surely just noise.

📷 image.pngimage.png

Personally, in my own setup I am close to being sampled correctly by theory. However, I always notice an improvement in FWHM with drizzle. If you are under-sampled, there should be a significant difference with FWHM on drizzle, I think suitable data and processing will show that for you.

I hope this helps you see what needs to be done to choose a model and then to ask questions whether drizzle helps.

Rick

Thank you Rick! I actually noticed the degraded square star shapes after downsample, so finally I chose to proceed on pure drizzled data and kept the 2x resolution, and stars look very smooth and round. The numbers are reported over the full image, which consists many galaxies and normal background stars, although a comparison on star cluster may be better. From your help, I realized that I’m very undersampled and even from experience, drizzle will help recover the detail. However, the thing that bothered me was the myth: drizzle will sacrifice SNR. I read from Cloudynights that Cuiv used to drizzle2x then BXT, then downsample to regain the SNR. What do you think about this process?

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Rick Veregin avatar

Theory says that drizzle offers the optimal S/N ratio.

The idea that the signal from one pixel is divided over more than one pixel, so therefore S/N goes down is too simplistic. The thing is that the dithering results in correlation of signals over the new nearby pixels, which means the noise in those new pixels is also correlated. Essentially there is averaging over pixels (that is different pixels contribute to the final pixels, which reduces the overall noise.

Note all this assumes good dithering, no dithering and drizzle doesn’t work properly.

The other point is that the noise is finer grain after drizzle, just as the signal is finer grain. This makes the noise less objectionable, the finer the noise the less we are able to see it. Also, the finer the noise, the easier to use noise reduction at smaller scales. The psf covers 4X the pixels with a 2X drizzle, so noise size in pixels is smaller relative to the psf. Thus, easier to use noise reduction without broadening the psf.

I think since you are very undersampled I would leave it at 2X, not down sample—the stars are going to look so much nicer that it will be much more appealing. There is more to S/N than just the numbers.

Rick

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andrea tasselli avatar
YingtianZZZ:
myth: drizzle will sacrifice SNR


No myth, drizzle will reduce SNR. Even FCA drizzle will result in loss of SNR. If you have oodles of signal that might not matter much but it is still there.
lunohodov avatar

At the risk of repeating what you already know, I would like to add a couple of bits to others’, already useful, answers.

I always run DrizzleIntegration manually. On one hand I want to control the process and determine the parameters myself, on the other hand it cements my understanding of the process.

The drizzle scale (2x, 3x, etc.) depends on the FWHM as measured on calibrated frames. But as seeing impacts FWHM and my seeing varies (between sessions & during the night), I measure FWHM for a set of frames (SubframeSelector or DynamicPSF) and take the median value.

  • With FWHM < 2.5px, drizzle is highly recommended

  • When FWHM between 2.5px and 3px, drizzle is recommended

  • With FWHM > 3px, drizzle won’t provide sampling improvements but is still useful for integration without interpolation (i.e. with OSC)

Having the FWHM measured you can use a formula to determine the right scale. You can look the details in DrizzleIntegration’s documentation but generally it boils down to \(ceil(3/FWHM)\).

The rest of the DrizzleIntegration parameters, such as Drop Shrink and kernel function, I determine by testing. Enabling Fast Drizzle and using a ROI significantly speed up the process. After each run, I check the resulting drizzle_weights map where:

  • I apply boosted STF and inspect the map for consistency i.e. no “blotches”

  • I use Statistics to check coverage (mean, minimum and maximum values). Higher values are better.

I hope this is useful to you.

Clear skies

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dayglow avatar

I think the inequality relationships should be in the other direction.

dayglow avatar

Nope, they were correct as stated.

Jon Brown avatar

Might sound nutty, but once I have a decent amount of integration (around 6 hours), I have great results with drizzling 3x and downsampling 50%.

it seems to retain more SNR and allows me to boost resolution better than drizzling 2x alone.

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Girish avatar

This is an interesting discussion and love it! I always had these kind of question but was never understood myself and hence was not sure how to put it in front to ask!

Thank you guys!

Rick Veregin avatar

Jon Brown · Jan 19, 2026, 11:50 PM

Might sound nutty, but once I have a decent amount of integration (around 6 hours), I have great results with drizzling 3x and downsampling 50%.

it seems to retain more SNR and allows me to boost resolution better than drizzling 2x alone.

Not nutty at all. I am about perfectly sampled for my conditions, but I always find 2X drizzle still improves the FWHM and the quality of my images. And I agree, much of the benefit to FWHM is retained when I down sample. On the other hand, keeping at 2X drizzle give me the better FWHM and retains the larger plate scale and finer noise, the former allows more close in views, the latter allows an easier reduction of noise with the wonderful noise reduction tools we have. Since I’m not under-sampled, I have not found 3X better than 2X, but depending on your sampling vs seeing, certainly 3X can be better to bring out detail, and then the down-scale retains a lot of that advantage. The issue with 3X is that this does start to bring in the noise, so the down-scale after will indeed bring the S/N back to a good place. I do not see a problem with S/N increase at 2X drizzle, so certainly 1.5X is a good landing point. You might even try a bit less down-sampling if your S/N is reasonable, the noise reduction tools keep getting better.

Rick

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Jon Brown avatar

Rick Veregin · Jan 20, 2026, 02:40 AM

Jon Brown · Jan 19, 2026, 11:50 PM

Might sound nutty, but once I have a decent amount of integration (around 6 hours), I have great results with drizzling 3x and downsampling 50%.

it seems to retain more SNR and allows me to boost resolution better than drizzling 2x alone.

Not nutty at all. I am about perfectly sampled for my conditions, but I always find 2X drizzle still improves the FWHM and the quality of my images. And I agree, much of the benefit to FWHM is retained when I down sample. On the other hand, keeping at 2X drizzle give me the better FWHM and retains the larger plate scale and finer noise, the former allows more close in views, the latter allows an easier reduction of noise with the wonderful noise reduction tools we have. Since I’m not under-sampled, I have not found 3X better than 2X, but depending on your sampling vs seeing, certainly 3X can be better to bring out detail, and then the down-scale retains a lot of that advantage. The issue with 3X is that this does start to bring in the noise, so the down-scale after will indeed bring the S/N back to a good place. I do not see a problem with S/N increase at 2X drizzle, so certainly 1.5X is a good landing point. You might even try a bit less down-sampling if your S/N is reasonable, the noise reduction tools keep getting better.

Rick

Thanks for the great explanation! I’m glad I wasn’t dreaming things up.

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