Pixinsight Help - Processing OSC data plus mono camera Luminance data

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Ancient.Photon avatar

Hello,

I recently acquired a mono 533mc camera. I captured luminance data on ngc 7331 with a uv-ir filter. I already owned a 533mc color camera and had some OSC data on the same target. I want to add the luminance data to my OSC dataset to improve the details/signal. I proceeded with below approach and am still not sure if this is a good approach. Please suggest processing workflow approach if you have combined OSC and mono Luminance data. I am a novice when it comes to processing. Any suggestion will help.

My workflow -

1). Split OSC data to R, G, B images.

2). background extract on L and R,G,B images.

3). BlurX on L,R,G,B images.

4). Linear fit (used L as reference) on R,G,B

5). Combine with LRGBcombine

6). SPCC + SCNR

7). GHS - Stretch Image

8). color saturation plus finetune stretch with curves.

thanks

Helpful
Mikołaj Wadowski avatar

A couple of notes:

  1. Blurxing RGB channels separately is pointless, if not detrimental, as aberration correction will work better on a color image

  2. SPCC shouldn’t be done on the combined LRGB image but rather on the RGB image prior to Lum combination.

  3. Linear fitting RGB to L won’t produce a very accurate result. Due to the channels having differences in brightness of stars and structures. Instead, if you want to combine LRGB in the linear stage, you should extract the average of the color calibrated RGB image and linear fit your Lum to that. Then, use L * $T / med(avg($T[0],$T[1],$T[2])) on the RGB image in pixelmath.

  4. LRGBCombination is meant for non-linear images only. It’s a perfectly valid way to combine LRGB, but you need to stretch the data appropriately first.

I also recommend extracting the background on the combined RGB image, as it’s much easier to see color gradients on a color image, rather than on each color channel separately.

Also, SCNR should be avoided as a means of balancing/correcting colors, curves, stretching, or manual color calibration are better suited for the job if you’re seeing a green cast in your data. Keep in mind, color calibration will almost always result in a green tint to the structures on non-drizzled OSC data, so if haven’t already, stack using 1x drizzle, preferrably with dropshrink set to ~0.45 to avoid interpolation artifacts from debayering. You can 1x drizzle the L data too while you’re at it (the same advantage, except interpolation artifact with mono data are much less significant, so dropshrink can be set to 0.8-0.9)

In the end, processing OSC + mono L is very similar to mono LRGB, the only major differences are the need to drizzle the OSC data and that the RGB data comes pre-combined with OSC :).

Hope this helps!

Helpful
andrea tasselli avatar
Also, SCNR should be avoided as a means of balancing/correcting colors, curves, stretching, or manual color calibration are better suited for the job if you’re seeing a green cast in your data. Keep in mind, color calibration will almost always result in a green tint to the structures on non-drizzled OSC data, so if haven’t already, stack using 1x drizzle, preferrably with dropshrink set to ~0.45 to avoid interpolation artifacts from debayering. You can 1x drizzle the L data too while you’re at it (the same advantage, except interpolation artifact with mono data are much less significant, so dropshrink can be set to 0.8-0.9)


*Appropriately used SCNR removes the green (or red or blue) cast form the background only, so there is a point in using it with a RGB image. And I can't really agree that there is a specific green cast only revealed by in undrizzled OSC data either. As for drizzling and I assume you are meaning CFA drizzle, then debayering does not have a part in it, the interpolation is being done by the CFA drizzling algorithm already, afaik. That is the whole point of it.
Mikołaj Wadowski avatar

andrea tasselli · Sep 1, 2025, 06:45 PM

Mikolaj Wadowski:
Also, SCNR should be avoided as a means of balancing/correcting colors, curves, stretching, or manual color calibration are better suited for the job if you’re seeing a green cast in your data. Keep in mind, color calibration will almost always result in a green tint to the structures on non-drizzled OSC data, so if haven’t already, stack using 1x drizzle, preferrably with dropshrink set to ~0.45 to avoid interpolation artifacts from debayering. You can 1x drizzle the L data too while you’re at it (the same advantage, except interpolation artifact with mono data are much less significant, so dropshrink can be set to 0.8-0.9)



*Appropriately used SCNR removes the green (or red or blue) cast form the background only, so there is a point in using it with a RGB image. And I can't really agree that there is a specific green cast only revealed by in drizzled OSC data either. As for drizzling and I assume you are meaning CFA drizzle, then debayering does not have a part in it, the interpolation is being done by the CFA drizzling algorithm already, afaik. That is the whole point of it.

SCNR is not a good tool for background neutralization. That’s BackgroundNeutralization’s job. Unless by background cast you mean green mottle, then yeah, I can somewhat agree, though I’d argue MMT would be a better choice, though it is more difficult to use.

Yes, I meant CFA drizzle whenever I mentioned drizzling the OSC data. Debayered, non-CFA-drizzled OSC images will always have a color cast (it’s almost always green in my experience) after color calibration. You can try it for yourself. Debayer interpolation trashes the photometry of an image, iirc due to small-scale features being messed with. CFA drizzle, iirc, works in the exact same way as standard drizzle, except it knows which pixel belongs to which channel.

Drizzle, both CFA and non-CFA, with a properly set dropshrink has negligible interpolation (or maybe none at all, I can’t remember), while the non-drizzled stacks will show visible interpolation artifacts. Whether that’s little spikes on very undersampled data from lanczos interpolation, debayering being debayering, or the slight convolution unavoidably added during any image transformation, like image registeration. That’s the whole point of 1x drizzle, to make the image (almost?) free of interpolation artifacts to maximize sharpness and restore photometry in some cases.

andrea tasselli avatar
SCNR is not a good tool for background neutralization. That’s BackgroundNeutralization’s job. Unless by background cast you mean green mottle, then yeah, I can somewhat agree, though I’d argue MMT would be a better choice, though it is more difficult to use.

Yes, I meant CFA drizzle whenever I mentioned drizzling the OSC data. Debayered, non-CFA-drizzled OSC images will always have a color cast (it’s almost always green in my experience) after color calibration. You can try it for yourself. Debayer interpolation trashes the photometry of an image, iirc due to small-scale features being messed with. CFA drizzle, iirc, works in the exact same way as standard drizzle, except it knows which pixel belongs to which channel.

Drizzle, both CFA and non-CFA, with a properly set dropshrink has negligible interpolation (or maybe none at all, I can’t remember), while the non-drizzled stacks will show visible interpolation artifacts. Whether that’s little spikes on very undersampled data from lanczos interpolation, debayering being debayering, or the slight convolution unavoidably added during any image transformation, like image registeration. That’s the whole point of 1x drizzle, to make the image (almost?) free of interpolation artifacts to maximize sharpness and restore photometry in some cases.


*SNCR is the only tool I ever used to control colour cast AFTER BackgroundNormalization and I have plenty of examples with that. Noisy backgrounds tend do that. And whether is drizzled or not, I can't really tell any difference in either background cast or general colour differences between the two, except maybe in stars. But can tell at a glance that the SNR of a drizzled image is lower than the un-drizzled one. Also, interpolation comes in both un-drizzled or drizzled CFA imagery, the difference being that interpolation comes in only during registration in the latter.
Ancient.Photon avatar

Mikolaj Wadowski · Sep 1, 2025, 06:25 PM

  • Blurxing RGB channels separately is pointless, if not detrimental, as aberration correction will work better on a color image

  • SPCC shouldn’t be done on the combined LRGB image but rather on the RGB image prior to Lum combination.

  • Linear fitting RGB to L won’t produce a very accurate result. Due to the channels having differences in brightness of stars and structures. Instead, if you want to combine LRGB in the linear stage, you should extract the average of the color calibrated RGB image and linear fit your Lum to that. Then, use L * $T / med(avg($T[0],$T[1],$T[2])) on the RGB image in pixelmath.

  • LRGBCombination is meant for non-linear images only. It’s a perfectly valid way to combine LRGB, but you need to stretch the data appropriately first.

thank you @Mikolaj Wadowski . your suggestions does provide better results. no need to split into R,G,B and did not require linear fit. LRGBcombine on stretched data worked perfectly. also Running SCNR on the OSC data provided better results. thank you again.

Mikołaj Wadowski avatar

andrea tasselli · Sep 1, 2025, 07:48 PM

*SNCR is the only tool I ever used to control colour cast AFTER BackgroundNormalization and I have plenty of examples with that. Noisy backgrounds tend do that. And whether is drizzled or not, I can't really tell any difference in either background cast or general colour differences between the two, except maybe in stars. But can tell at a glance that the SNR of a drizzled image is lower than the un-drizzled one. Also, interpolation comes in both un-drizzled or drizzled CFA imagery, the difference being that interpolation comes in only during registration in the latter.

If you still have a color cast after background neutralization then either it did not work properly, or your green channel is noisy compared to other channels. I’d argue the proper way to correct the latter is chromiance denoise instead of just nuking the green with SCNR entirely.

The color cast from drizzle vs debayer is easy to test for yourself. This is debayered vs CFA drizzled at 0.45 dropshrink after background neutralization and color calibration, matching brightness (keep in mind you can’t simply linear fit the color images as that would change the relative channel intensities) and finally bumping saturation to make the difference more visible. It’s even more significant with galaxies in my experience.

image.pngimage.pngThe apparent decrease in SNR is misunderstood. The final stack comes out sharper, so the debayered stack is effectively blurred slightly, which would obviously decrease the apparent amount of noise. I say apparent as the final actual SNR per area should be very similar in both cases.

After double checking, drizzle does not in fact use interpolation. The geometric transformations are stored after registration and are later performed on the uninterpolated data (calibrated images, before debayering) but using the drizzle algorithm rather than image interpolation.

Helpful Insightful
Mikołaj Wadowski avatar

Amit · Sep 1, 2025, 08:12 PM

Mikolaj Wadowski · Sep 1, 2025, 06:25 PM

  • Blurxing RGB channels separately is pointless, if not detrimental, as aberration correction will work better on a color image

  • SPCC shouldn’t be done on the combined LRGB image but rather on the RGB image prior to Lum combination.

  • Linear fitting RGB to L won’t produce a very accurate result. Due to the channels having differences in brightness of stars and structures. Instead, if you want to combine LRGB in the linear stage, you should extract the average of the color calibrated RGB image and linear fit your Lum to that. Then, use L * $T / med(avg($T[0],$T[1],$T[2])) on the RGB image in pixelmath.

  • LRGBCombination is meant for non-linear images only. It’s a perfectly valid way to combine LRGB, but you need to stretch the data appropriately first.

thank you @Mikolaj Wadowski . your suggestions does provide better results. no need to split into R,G,B and did not require linear fit. LRGBcombine on stretched data worked perfectly. also Running SCNR on the OSC data provided better results. thank you again.

Glad I could help. Again, I seriously recommend not killing any signal with SCNR and looking into preventing the unwanted green cast in the first place. But it’s up to you in the end.

Well Written Respectful
andrea tasselli avatar
andrea tasselli · Sep 1, 2025, 07:48 PM

*SNCR is the only tool I ever used to control colour cast AFTER BackgroundNormalization and I have plenty of examples with that. Noisy backgrounds tend do that. And whether is drizzled or not, I can't really tell any difference in either background cast or general colour differences between the two, except maybe in stars. But can tell at a glance that the SNR of a drizzled image is lower than the un-drizzled one. Also, interpolation comes in both un-drizzled or drizzled CFA imagery, the difference being that interpolation comes in only during registration in the latter.

If you still have a color cast after background neutralization then either it did not work properly, or your green channel is noisy compared to other channels. I’d argue the proper way to correct the latter is chromiance denoise instead of just nuking the green with SCNR entirely.

The color cast from drizzle vs debayer is easy to test for yourself. This is debayered vs CFA drizzled at 0.45 dropshrink after background neutralization and color calibration, matching brightness (keep in mind you can’t simply linear fit the color images as that would change the relative channel intensities) and finally bumping saturation to make the difference more visible. It’s even more significant with galaxies in my experience.

The apparent decrease in SNR is misunderstood. The final stack comes out sharper, so the debayered stack is effectively blurred slightly, which would obviously decrease the apparent amount of noise. I say apparent as the final actual SNR per area should be very similar in both cases.

After double checking, drizzle does not in fact use interpolation. The geometric transformations are stored after registration and are later performed on the uninterpolated data (calibrated images, before debayering) but using the drizzle algorithm rather than image interpolation.

*I'd argue that when you have high background noise BN doesn't work as it should and more radical approaches are needed. SNCR is fast and reliable and properly used will only restore the neutral colour balance of the background without affecting the foreground colour cast.

As for the relative effect of drizzle on colour fidelity (or colour cast) I submit my experience is quite different from yours, witness the following example (amongst many):

The un-drizzled image is slightly warmer in tones than the drizzled one and I have chosen this example as one of the few I have with a starker difference between the two, being taken with a lens. For most of the reflector-sourced filtered imagery the difference isn't really visible that much, see below:


As for the effective SNR reduction of using CAF drizzle, this has both been measured and also comes directly form the horse's mouth, Juan Conejero. With faint signal the effect is in fact quite dramatic on the signal side.
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